When Bad Things Happen To Good People

November 26, 2009

Recently I was invited to speak at an Indonesian church an hour outside of Jakarta. The senior pastor was diagnosed with liver cancer a year earlier. The doctors attending to him explored the possibility of a liver transplant. After much effort, the money needed for the operation was raised and a liver donor was found. On the eve of the surgery, as the doctors were doing a final pre-op examination, they discovered that the cancer had spread throughout his body. It was now too late to do a liver transplant and the procedure was called off. The pastor and his family were devastated by this unexpected turn of events. Upon hearing the news, the assistant pastor was so grief-stricken that the next day, he suddenly collapsed in the middle of the church service and died. Forty days later, the senior pastor passed away. Without any clergy in this fledgling church, the housewifely widow of the senior pastor had to conduct the funeral service on her own. Some finger-pointing members started questioning if the untimely deaths of the top leadership were due to divine retribution, or whether the church was cursed. Over the next few months, attendance began to dwindle. As I ministered in the church, I could sense an unspoken question in the air—why do bad things happen to good people?

There are many wonderful blessings that come with belonging to the Faith/Charismatic circle: the belief in signs and wonders, divine healing and health, success and financial prosperity, living a life of influence and purpose, et cetera. However, one area that most Charismatics do not handle too well is the issue of suffering. The prevalent reasoning is that if God is a good, healing, delivering God, whose desire is only to protect and bless His children, then a Christian should not have to suffer. And if a believer does suffer, then there must be something wrong with his/her life or faith. As such, it is not uncommon to hear prominent Faith/Charismatic ministers making rhetorical statements like, “Our heavenly Father will never allow Christians to suffer. I reject sufferings and claim only God’s blessings!”

When this kind of simplistic thinking is embraced, it can make a person judgmental and mean-spirited. If one is faced with an incurable disease or experiences a tragic accident, it must be the result of an unconfessed sin, a generational curse, or that God is giving up on that person. It is a judgment from God, a divine retribution.

Years ago, one of my Bible college classmates died unexpectedly. Instead of consoling and comforting her father, who was a minister in the Assemblies of God, some Christians wrote accusatory letters condemning him of being the cause of his daughter’s untimely death. They speculated the existence of secret, unconfessed sins that had resulted in this “divine punishment.” Otherwise, it must have been his “lack of faith” that failed to raise that girl from the dead.

Shortly after Seow-How and Cecilia co-founded Heart of God Church in 1999, there was a terrible accident that took place outside of their church premises one Sunday. Two teenage members were walking across the road when a sleepy bus driver rammed into them. One of them died on the spot, the other died in the hospital hours later. It was a heart-wrenching tragedy for this very young church and its congregation. One lady from a local Charismatic church berated Seow-How and Cecilia, saying that the church had been divinely cursed. How else could they explain the unexpected death of the two teenagers? If God’s blessing was on the congregation, there should never have been any form of suffering.

In an overly simplistic view on suffering, the logic usually goes like this:

If you are good, there will be no suffering for you.
If you are bad, you will suffer.
So if there is suffering, then you must be bad, cursed and judged!

If this line of reasoning is true, then what about Jesus Christ, the apostles and all the heroes of faith? They all suffered greatly for the gospel. Obviously the “suffering-means-accursed” logic espoused by many is greatly flawed. I feel strongly that we need to re-look the whole concept of suffering, especially through the life of Job, a man who went through an unparalleled magnitude of suffering.

The Scripture introduces Job as someone who was “blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil” (Job 1:1). In fact, Job’s morality was so legendary that he was listed twice as one of the three most righteous men in the Old Testament (Ezek. 14:14, 20). He was a spiritually mature man, not a novice in the things of God.

Job was blessed with seven sons and three daughters, all grown up with their own families and homes. He was incredibly wealthy with thousands of livestock. His ownership of 3,000 camels meant that he ran the largest transportation business in the region during his time. The sheer number of his sheep, camels, oxen and donkeys meant that Job also owned a lot of farmlands for the animals to graze on. Without a doubt, he “was the greatest of all the people of the East” (1:3), a man professionally respected by all.

Beyond his material success, Job was a caring father to his children. Like the patriarchs, he functioned as a priest over his family. He took his sacrificial obligation seriously, viewing it as expiation for sin. To Job this included even sins of the heart, for he made special offerings just in case his sons had secretly cursed God (1:5). Even God Himself acknowledged that there was not a better man than Job in his day (1:8). If ever there was an outstanding man, it was Job. Yet, very bad things happened to him.

In one day, severe calamities befell him and his household. Out of nowhere bandits came and pillaged all his oxen and donkeys, murdering all his farmhands in the process (1:15). Then a lightning bolt came out of the sky causing a forest fire, and all his 7,000 sheep and herdsmen were burned alive (1:16). At the same time, robbers came in three raids and took away his 3,000 camels and slew all their handlers (1:17). And before the dust could settle, a freak storm struck the house wherein his ten children were dining. The roof fell on them and they all died instantly (1:19). Within 24 hours, Job lost his entire business and family. Without anyone to help him, this 70-year-old elderly man had to bury all his children by himself.

As if what happened was not bad enough, Job now became very sick. His body was inflamed with ulcerous sores (2:7). Bible scholars believe that he had a severe case of elephantiasis, an illness that causes swelling and the disfiguration of face, causing him to be unrecognizable (2:12). He began to lose appetite and spiraled into depression (3:24-25). His body was covered with scabs oozing out pus and there were worms crawling all over him (7:5). He developed difficulty breathing (9:18), darkening of the eyelid (16:16), severe weight loss (19:20) as well as continual pain and anxiety (30:27). The high fever and blackened skin (30:30) indicated that he was probably having some form of kidney or liver failure. For the next nine months, Job was in constant delirium.

Because he was totally bankrupt, Job was now living at the city dump where they burned garbage and human excrements. He was the absolute personification of misery. The richest man in the East was reduced to nothing. He was now a social outcast—shamed, disgraced, rejected and despised by all. Very bad things happened to this very good man!

It is never easy for anyone to go through difficult times and tough situations. However, when terrible things happen to us, here are a few things we need to bear in mind:

1.	Know that God is not angry with you. Job was an extremely righteous man, yet he suffered like no one else. Psalm 34:19 says, “Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers him out of them all.” The apostle Paul, who himself is no stranger to suffering, says, “All who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution” (2 Tim. 3:12). You could be going through a hard time because you have been righteous and godly. So do not condemn yourself or think that God is displeased with you.
	By the way, the word “afflictions” also means physical suffering and mental anguish. With all my heart, I fully believe in divine healing (Mark 16:17-18). However, I also submit to the sovereignty of God in any given situation. Like Job, many great men of faith (with strong healing ministries) have themselves been afflicted with terrible illnesses. Elisha the miracle worker died of a terminal sickness (2 Kin. 13:14). The apostle Paul was said to have had an incurable disease (2 Cor. 12:7). Epaphroditus was so sick he almost died (Phil. 2:27). Billy Graham and Yonggi Cho are both diagnosed with Parkinson’s disease. Reinhard Bonkke struggled with prostate cancer a few years ago. Casey Treat was diagnosed with Hepatitis C in 2003. A week ago, on November 22, megachurch pastor Billy Joe Daughterty succumbed to non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma and passed away. All these ministers are godly men of faith, with impeccable integrity, but have themselves been suffering with severe illnesses. The next time you see someone who is sick, please do not be quick to judge him/her for having little faith. We do live in a fallen world with imperfect bodies.
2.	Realize that you are in a spiritual warfare. The Bible makes it very clear that the source of Job’s suffering was Satan the devil. He has come to steal, kill and destroy (John 10:10). Through tragedies and calamities, Satan constantly seeks to tempt us to reject God, to “curse Him to His face” (Job 1:11). When you are faced with hard times, do not get mad with God. It is not His fault.
3.	Believe that God is ultimately in control. To touch Job’s possessions, family and health, Satan needed permission from God (1:12; 2:6). We can be assured of this one thing: nothing can ever happen to us without His permission. As a good God, He never enjoys seeing His people suffer. Yet sometimes, He allows bad things to happen to bring about a deeper change in us. In the case of Job, Satan may have thought that he was provoking God; but really, God was simply using Satan to complete His own perfecting work in Job.
4.	Offer up the sacrifice of praise. Despite being grief-stricken, Job “fell to the ground and worshiped,” acknowledging God’s sovereignty over his life to give and take away (1:20-21). Even when he was made bankrupt and saw the irrational death of his ten children, never once did he “sin nor charge God with wrong” (1:22). Job’s trust in God’s goodness was astounding.
5.	Understand that God is seeking to make you better. God is more interested in our character than our comfort. He is a very purposeful God and never arbitrary in His treatment concerning us. That is why when we do not see His hand, we must learn to trust His heart. If not, we will become confused, resentful and bitter. That is precisely why we need faith in our walk with Him. The silence of God will make you wonder if He even cares, but He does. The silence of God will make you wonder if He is even there, but He is. Faith is never for the good times, it is always for the difficult times.
	One cannot appreciate Job’s love for God unless one understands Job 29, which is a description of Job’s life before the tragedies befell him. Way back then, the counsel of God was already a lamp unto his feet and a light unto his path (29:1-3; Ps. 119:105). He was walking in revelation. By Job’s own admission, he considered himself as one who had already “arrived” at advanced spiritual growth and maturity: “I was in the days of my prime” (Job 29:4). He was living with great material abundance and God’s presence (29:6).
	When he spoke, everybody listened. Job was the “eyes to the blind,” the “feet to the lame,” the “father to the poor,” the provider to widows, and the defender of justice. The people loved, admired and looked up to him. He was their guide, commander and king. Really, there was nothing more for Job to achieve. He had done it all! He was living the dream!
	I know that for most Christian businesspeople or “kingdom professionals,” this is the kind of life we all aspire to live—blessed with wealth, a great family life, and status in society. We desire to be the head and not the tail, above and not beneath, and at the same time, a spiritual leader that everyone looks up to in the church and community. Yet as far as God was concerned, Job was not completely mature. There were many inner struggles he had that nobody knew of. For one, Job never felt safe or secure in life in spite of all his achievements. He had a lot of restlessness and anxieties in his soul (3:25-26).
	Here was a man who knew and sensed God, but never had real, deep, life-changing encounters with God. He had heard from God, but had never seen the Lord (42:5). Although he loved God with all his heart, he had not yet reached the point of total abandonment toward Him. Job is like the Christian who has not come to a place where he can say, “For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain” (Phil. 1:21), or “I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me” (Gal. 2:20).
	Job was successful, spiritual and blameless, but he was not broken unto the Lord. He felt he had “arrived” (materially, parentally, socially, spiritually), but he was terribly deceived—a victim of his own illusion. God wanted to change that in him. In His sovereign wisdom, the only way to break Job was to take him through a period of abject suffering.
6.	Develop the capacity to obediently endure. This is the key purpose of all God-ordained sufferings. James 5:11 exhorts us to experience and learn the “perseverance of Job.” Perseverance is the “capacity to endure,” which is critical to our maturity and destiny. Very often, when we are exposed to certain viral sicknesses (for example, chicken pox), our body develops immunity against it thereafter. Similarly, while suffering does not originate from God, He allows it to build in us the spiritual capacity to handle intense pain and stress, and an immunity toward discouragement and depression.
	Romans 5:3-4 says that “we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope.” No one in the right mind will ever wish for suffering.We do not rejoice in suffering unless we know there is something greater that God has purposed in our lives. God’s ultimate purpose of putting us through crisis, heartbreaks, misunderstanding and persecution is so that we develop perseverance (the capacity to endure), character (moral strength) and hope (a positive outlook of life).
	How great a life do you want to live? Well, how much pressure are you able to take? When Job lost all his wealth and ten children, and his resentful wife blamed God, he was able to keep on worshiping Him. When his physical body was suffering from sores, swellings and multiple organ failures, and when his psychological state of mind was in severe depression, Job was able to keep trusting God. His capacity for pressure was amazing. Job said, “Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him” (Job 13:15). Trusting God is when you do not need an explanation from Him for whatever is happening in your life.
	When his three friends (Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar) turned against him and persecuted him, telling him that his predicament was a punishment from God for his sin, Job held on to his faith: “But He knows the way that I take; when He has tested me, I shall come forth as gold” (Job 23:10).
	Even Jesus Christ went through sufferings to “learn obedience” as a Son (Heb. 5:8). Obedient endurance is the crowning mark of maturity. When you can obey the will of God even in the midst of crisis, heartbreaks, misunderstanding and persecution, you have become truly mature.
	Sufferings refine our faith in God like nothing else will. That is why the Scripture encourages us to “count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience” (James 1:2-3). As your capacity for endurance grows, and you can keep on obeying the will of God in spite of stress, hardships, criticisms and pain, you will become “perfect and complete, lacking nothing” (1:4).
7.	Get ready for the double portion. Suffering is a prerequisite for sonship. Only true sons inherit the Father’s estate. Jesus was willing to suffer and become “obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Phil. 2:8-11). Jesus Christ, the true Son of God, became the heir of all things and inherited His Father’s estate. It is the same for us: “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him” (2 Tim. 2:12). This is what obedient endurance does: giving us the sonship to inherit the double portion.
	Ultimately, God’s purpose of Job’s suffering was to qualify him for the double portion. True enough, God doubled all his possessions. He was blessed with 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 oxen, and 1,000 donkeys (42:10-12). He was blessed with ten other children (42:13-14). God then doubled his length of days by adding another 140 years (70 x 2) to his life. Moreover, Job became God’s example of obedient perseverance for all eternity.
Like Job, it is one thing to be blameless but quite another to be broken unto the Lord. True maturity is the absolute abandonment to God and His will. When there is no capacity for obedient endurance, we are not yet ready for the double portion. If you are going through a period of intense suffering, wisely do everything you possibly can to overcome it. And having done all, hold on steady and stand before the Lord in faith (Eph. 6:13). Obediently endure through the fire, trial, pain, disappointment, sickness, financial lack and persecution by faith. God is working out something beautiful in your life.

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233 Responses to “When Bad Things Happen To Good People”

VL on November 26th, 2009 1:15 am

Dear Rev Kong Hee,

Thank you so much for your ministry. Your reflections on suffering provide consolation and hope to all who have, who are, and who will be going through suffering in life.

Recently, I have a loved one at home, who shortly after giving his heart to Jesus, was diagnosed with brain tumor.

To a fledgling Christian, it was hard for him to rationalise why something so unfortunate happened.

However, your exposition on the Book of Job in your sermon really serves as a profound encouragement to him.

He is now emboldened to face the surgery and believes that God is in control and that something good will come out of it.

From my observation, something good has already been happening, this trial is already strengthening his faith and conviction towards God, maturing him as a Christian, in double quick time.

As you suggest in your article, suffering is an integral part of life and suffering can seldom be explained with reason or rationality.

God, in His sovereignty, has allowed for various trials and tribulations to happen in our lives. Like Job’s friends, there could possibly be a plethora of reasons that we could identify to justify the sufferings – sin, disobedience, generational curses, pride, spiritual warfare, and the list goes on.

But the fact of the matter is that it is highly presumptuous and arrogant for us as humans to attribute causes to what God, in his infinite wisdom, has allowed for.

The truth is, when bad things happen to our friends who are good people, we really don’t know what the reason is.

Perhaps, in cases like these, we don’t have to pretend to know. We are fellow mortals after all and as you said, we do live in a broken world.

Like many Christians, I have seen scores of good people meeting accidents, having miscarriages, battling sicknesses and afflictions.

When these things happen, some of us may not really be looking for reasons or mental comfort and we might not really be seeking after esoteric reasoning for their troubles.

What we really want is emotional consolation and spiritual solace, to give them strength, courage and hope to fight the good fight of faith. I know, because to some degree, I have been there before.

In times like these, perhaps the verse from the Scriptures in Rom 12:15 “Rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep” could be the best advice for friends to remember.

As we always say, that in times when we cannot see God’s hand, we can and must still always trust in God’s heart.

As you elucidated in your article, regardless of the varied and many causes of sufferings, one consistent outcome of a Christian who has gone through the fire and fought the good fight is that he comes forth with his faith purified, with greater love, greater maturity and a deeper relationship with God, ready for the greater works that God can accomplished through him.

Thank you Pastor once again for taking an unequivocal stand on the issue of suffering and shedding light on this topic in a manner that stirs our faith in God and our hope in Him.
edmund on November 26th, 2009 1:19 am

Pst, I just read the post and I thoroughly enjoyed it!

I liked your examples in Job, and I believe that Job serves to remind us that as believers, everyone of us should expect to go through valleys and have mountain-top experiences as well.

I for you, do not look forward to these valleys, but as the Bible clearly shows us: these trials do mature our faith, and strengthen us as believers. As it says in the bible:
Romans 8:16-17 ( NKJV )
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

I was also saddened as I read about the condemnation that some pastors have experienced as they go through their difficult times.

I think it is always ironic that although Christianity preaches love and grace, and yet, we seem to always have the habit of “shooting and crucifying our own people”.

I was recently studying Church History, and historians seem to highlight that a lot of separations and church spilts are mainly due to political intrigue and personal ambition rather than due to inseparable theological differences.

It is my hope that more Christians will agree to disagree on non-essential issues and focus more on living our lives for Christ and winning the lost for Him.
Tricia on November 26th, 2009 1:23 am

Thank you Pastor Kong! So blessed and lifted up after reading this! Our God is a good God =)
TKH on November 26th, 2009 1:32 am

Dear Pastor,

This was indeed a long-awaited article … I remembered you preached about the sufferings of Job about a month ago and that message had greatly encouraged me in facing my personal challenges, as well as comfort those who are in the midst of some sufferings.

Even though CHC is known for our faith teachings, your exposition on the sufferings of Job has brought about a much needed balance in the understanding of faith and trust in God. Like what Apostle Paul said in Phi 3:10, we are called not only “to know the power of His resurrection, but also the fellowship of His sufferings.”

Though this is an area that none of us wish to be involved in, it is good to be reminded that this is a promise from John 16:33 ” in this world we will have tribulations (sufferings)”, but we can be of good cheer because You “have overcome the world”.

We rejoice not because we are suffering, but knowing that the “testing of our faith will produce patience”, and when we let “patience have its perfect work”, we too “may be complete and entire, lacking nothing.” (James 1:2-4)

Thank you once again for an insightful article.

God bless.

TKH
danieljx on November 26th, 2009 1:34 am

Dear Pastor,

Your post really encouraged me personally. I’m sure the post was not theoretically written, but it is written by one that has gone through much in life; and yet persevering on for the cause of Christ.

While we would all like to ‘bypass’ sufferings, it is biblical to say that sufferings is a portion of our life as a believer, whether it can be rationalised or at certain times, incomprehensible.

Just to share: In the last 2 years, quite a close couple friend of mine had 2 miscarriages – one after another. Shortly after, the wife was found to have an infection on one of her fallopian tube and it had to be surgically removed. As age catches on, the doctors ruled a very slim chance of them ever conceiving. They were committed believers who loved God, living honest lives. They were devasated. I prayed with them. Honestly, I was baffled and stumbled. As they continued to grieve and pray over the loss of their unborn babies, the unthinkable happened. The wife conceived 2 months ago – twins.

As I wondered about the loss they had suffered, I can’t help but to also see the goodness of God in their lives. Not only should we confidently expect to live our best lives in God, at the same time, we should not be naive about honest pains in our lives.

As I journey in my walk of faith in God, I pray that I will continue to grow in my abandonment to the sovereignty of God, without diminishing His goodness in my life. Just like Job, to develop obedient perservance in God so that He will work out something beautiful in me.

Pastor, thank you for blogging. Thank you for being such an inspiration!
AT on November 26th, 2009 1:47 am

Dear Pst,

Thank you for such an insightful and encouraging article. I remembered feeling like Job when both my parents died suddenly within the same year. To me, that was the “darkest” moment in my life. However, I thank God for the love, support and help given by all the dear friends in Church. Indeed God’s grace is sufficient to bring us through the different crisis in life.

Thank you once again for sharing.

Cheers,

AT
Jong N.Y. on November 26th, 2009 7:08 am

The typical christian who thinks that true Christians should not be going through sufferings, have not matureed. Yes, no one look forward to sufferings, but the truth of the matter is when we folllow Jesus, the adversary will attack us and we go through sufferings – that is a promise from Jesus. However we live by faith and overcome not by self but thru the Holy Spirit who comforts us.

God gives us His Word and Promises,that would take us thru our troubles. He teaches us to speak Faith rather than Fear in the midst of trouble. The war in the heavenlies is manisfested on earth – in people. Just as satan need a body to do his dirty work, God recruits people to overcome satan thru the manisfestation of God’s love in His people. Yes by works!

When we declare ourselves as a ‘living sacrifice’ at God’s altar, do we realise how tall a declaration that is? We put ourselves as sheeps being let to the slaughter – a sacrifice for the salvation of the people we personally do not like (our adversaries under the influence of our enemy, satan). How many of us can asuredly say we made the mark? We stumble and fall, He picks us up and encourage us to carry on towards the mark. In the process we learn His nature and this strengthens our faith and take us to a higher level.

So Christians, do not be mean to people who are suffering. Do not leans towards your own understanding and opinions. Do not judge. If you don’t know what to say – shut up but pray for that person who is suffering. Goes for pastors too!

Glory to God – Amen.
BC on November 26th, 2009 8:02 am

Dear Pastor,

Thank you for speaking on this topic.

Without a right biblical perspective on ‘bad things happening to good people’, people can end up on a ‘guilt trip’ and a sense of condemnation for a whole life time.

As I read the article, I was reminded of another character in the New Testament, who is well respected, a faithful servant of God, author of the most number of books in the New Testament—Apostle Paul. He experienced ‘bad things happening to good people’. Following was his testimony: “From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked ; a night and a day I have been in the deep; in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness” (2 Cor 11:24-27)

Thank you once again for this article.

BC
Cal on November 26th, 2009 9:30 am

Dear Pastor,

Thank you once again for such an encouraging post. I really enjoyed reading it!

Truly in life, Bad things do happen to good people, but the fact of the matter is that whether do we chose to look beyond the matter and look to God! And trust Him.

Thank you for inspiring faith
Cal
joyce on November 26th, 2009 9:34 am

Thanks Pastor for the encouraging blog.

Whether the person going thru stuff is good or bad, I felt that the job of Christians is not to judge whether that person is a good or bad person. We should be the salt that brings healing and be there to pray together, to help in whatever practical ways we can, and just to love and lend a shoulder to cry on regardless, because Jesus still died for that person, didn’t He?

So before we start pointing fingers and formulating reasons why someone is going through stuff, maybe we should ponder the wisdom of God in creating five fingers in Man… whenever we point in accusation at someone, the other four by default point towards ourselves.

:P
edified on November 26th, 2009 9:35 am

Pastor, thanks so much for this post.

It answered so much of my doubts in my new journey with Christ.

This blog post is so edifying and clear, compared to Wholesome shallowness which I found confusing and troubling especially in the light of young singers breaking out with sexually titillating moves, so as to link up with the youths today.

And in the latter part of Wholesome shallowness, it was really sad that Sun was shown viewing semi naked men on youtube, and giggling about it, which I find not really amusing.

Thank you for this post. It really answers my questions on sufferings of this world.
JH on November 26th, 2009 9:38 am

This is truly a great encouragement to those who are going through difficult and tough times.
When I was growing up, the reason given for bad things that happen to good people, was always a sin they did, or if there’s nothing to point at, it would be purely not enough prayer or not enough faith.
It is very sad that whenever there’s no answers, some Christians choose to take a pharasical view and point fingers.
Thanks Pastor for taking the time to pen this post. It really builds faith!
George on November 26th, 2009 9:40 am

Yes, it is so true, Joyce,

When we call others pharisees, three fingers points straight back at us too.

(Actually, the thumb kind of point in the same direction.)

And when we accuse others of Cheap Grace, we need also to look at our own families who are in the lime light.

I have learnt so much from Pastor’s blog.
Peter on November 26th, 2009 9:44 am

It is good to also see the maturity of Pastor with time.

I did hear that once, a child passed on. When the parents sought solace from his pastor (many years ago) the pastor said if the parents had more faith, the child might have lived. (I believe this was before Dayan was born). It was crushing piece of news for the parents.

So yes, this blog post shows his maturity over the years.

Bless you Pastor.
wayne on November 26th, 2009 10:07 am

pastor, I really enjoyed this article. and of course this is such a tough topic to talk on. because it is just so hard to explain how we are all living in a broken down world where things just don’t always go according to how we want it. how bad things happens to good people. How christians still gets killed and hurt. it is easy to say that we are to tough it through but it is hard to be the one that needs to tough it through. It is through articles and messages like yours that we are always getting that extra push to have a little more faith. faith comes by hearing the word of God. So thank you pastor for doing the hard work of finding the passages and the scripture to help us to grow stronger. thanks for every thing
uberVU - social comments on November 26th, 2009 10:18 am

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This post was mentioned on Twitter by karheng: Capacity got obedient endurance http://tinyurl.com/y8hcred…
Xuanhong on November 26th, 2009 12:57 pm

Thanks pastor! i believe this have really encouraged a lot of people who are struggling with their circumstances!
Jasmine on November 26th, 2009 1:09 pm

dear Pst Kong, thanks for this posting this blog entry up. it is edifying to my soul, indeed. God is always faithful in times like these (personally for me, fighting with Eczema). It is like what you mentioned, Ps, that I can develop the capacity to obediently endure… it is not easy, an ongoing process. but it is not gonna altogether too hard when God is with us.

Once again, tks Ps. I am uplifted. :)
Yvonne on November 26th, 2009 1:15 pm

I love this blog Pastor. I felt this is one of those sermons that allowed me to understand about life and my own journey with God. In fact, I posted one of the regularly used phrases at CHC (extracted from the article) on my FB status: ‘God is more interested in our character than in our comfort’ and it jolted some people. War might rage on my FB!!
Thank you for your time to share through your blogs. I always look forward to it.
Ravi Philemon on November 26th, 2009 1:15 pm

Hmmm…endure suffering so that you may get ready for double portion…
ChristineL on November 26th, 2009 1:18 pm

Ps, thx so much for your article.

My husband and I feel really blessed by it., we have been going through a difficult time this year with much uncertainties. There are things that we are hoping that God will bring to us and we have been waiting and waiting. of course there are times we wonder if why others seemed to have better life than us.

but as we heard from your preaching last month and now reading your article, we feel encouraged to continue to trust in the lord. truly the life that we now live, we live by faith in the son of god who loves us and died for us. most importantly He resurrected for us.

At times when it gets really tough, we would come together and pray and thank God for what we already have. though this is a difficult season for us, yet as we continued to give our thanks and praise together, my husband and we found ourselves growing closer and learning to depend on the grace of God more than before.

Thx pastor!
Evangeline Gabrielle on November 26th, 2009 1:31 pm

Pastor, this is such a wonderful article. Sometimes, in times of needs, it is really not to question what bad things happened but to overcome it. =)
San on November 26th, 2009 1:45 pm

What a great piece, Pastor. Once again, you have put forward a strong case, and it was refreshing and a blessing to read.
Jenny-TW on November 26th, 2009 1:53 pm

This is a master piece!! I am blessd in reading and I believe those who are in trouble could be comforted and encouraged by the article. And this is a very good mateiral for the pastoral counseling.
Melvin Chen on November 26th, 2009 2:15 pm

Pastor, thank you for writing to encourage and edify all of us !
Cyn on November 26th, 2009 2:16 pm

Very blessed by this sharing, Pastor. I guess we’ve got to always maintain a right perspective about God: He is always good, and that He always will work everything out for our good.
Wayne Tay on November 26th, 2009 2:30 pm

Hi Rev. Kong Hee

It is really challenging to follow Jesus Christ. I prayed all fellow christians able to survive when bad things happen on us because it is really not easy.

building up the inner man is very important so that we can endure hardship. amen! Thank you once again!
Israel on November 26th, 2009 2:58 pm

Awesome post pastor!
Nicolette on November 26th, 2009 3:06 pm

wow blessed! thank you Pastor :)
Tim on November 26th, 2009 3:23 pm

Good and bad things happen to all people irregardless if one is ‘good’ or ‘bad’…why don’t we also ask “Why do good things happen to bad people?”…it will go on and on…what is more important, is how we overcome each and every problem that happens in our lives…that is for sure…problems happen to all people.
Mountaingirl on November 26th, 2009 3:27 pm

Dear Pastor,

This post comes at a time when I feel I am ’suffering’ . I find that I inevitably think that I have done something wrong. I might have sinned. Not being able to walk in blessings somehow feels like I am not right with God. These are thoughts that I have to battle many a times. But having heard your message on Job and having read your post, I am encouraged to look upon my situation as one where ‘ I can come forth as gold’. I pray that I will go through my challenges with faith, obediently enduring and trusting God and believing for breakthrough. For whatever that doesn’t break us – makes us stronger.
Pastor, thank you for taking time to encourage and comfort us even in your busyness.
Sam on November 26th, 2009 3:48 pm

What I want to know is “why do GOOD things happen to BAD people?!” This world is full of corrupt, wicked people that seem to be blessed financially and in other ways as well…
Ruben Potter on November 26th, 2009 4:11 pm

Amen Pastor, thank you so much for sharing.. we’ll keep walking the narrow path for Jesus.

My dream is that one day, I can truly mean it when I say, “nothing compares to You, Lord”

God Bless you, Sun & Dayan

Love,
Ruben
Princess on November 26th, 2009 4:17 pm

This is so good, many of times people are so quick to finger pointing instead to feel how the affected people would feel.

I’m bless with understanding..
Rose on November 26th, 2009 4:28 pm

Hi Peter,

This is a terrible thing to write and a classic case of spreading rumors!

Peter on November 26th, 2009 9:44 am
“I did hear that once, a child passed on. When the parents sought solace from his pastor (many years ago) the pastor said if the parents had more faith, the child might have lived. (I believe this was before Dayan was born). It was crushing piece of news for the parents.”

Who did you hear it from? Who are the parents? What are you trying to instigate about Pastor?

Why make such a malicious statement when you cant ascertain its validity?

…
stargazing on November 26th, 2009 4:54 pm

Dear Pst,

thank you for your wonderful preaching and this article over the last few months.

It has been very encouraging to hear these sermons and read this for ourselves, knowing that when bad things happen to good people, we do not need to assume that God is punishing us, and that it is a necessary case of us sinning against God.

The story of Job has greatly encouraged us, how when he has been tested, he held on to his faith. Truly such a story is placed in the Bible to encourage us all!

I love the verse from Job 42:5, when Job says,

“I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.”

God does allow things to happen to us, and indeed it will work for our good.

The fact that through all the experiences of Job, he really met with God, give us all a hope, that when we are tested, we shall come forth as gold.

And yes pastor, truly like what u have said, when we can’t see God’s hand, we can trust His heart. And we know, we can all come forth as gold.

Thank you pastor for this awesome post!

It has been so encouraging n reassuring. :)
Winston on November 26th, 2009 4:59 pm

I agree with Jane.

Peter, your uncalled-for remarks is truly character assassination epitomised.

Why like that?
Twitted by junetan on November 26th, 2009 5:14 pm

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Dave on November 26th, 2009 5:25 pm

What an encouraging and faith-strengthening blog, Pastor!
I love the line “Trusting God is when you do not need an explanation from Him for whatever is happening in your life.” This is so true.

Keep blogging!
Leila on November 26th, 2009 7:56 pm

Dear Pastor,
this is a fabulous read!
Truly it teaches us how to have the right attitude when our friends/loved ones are going through tough times… and sheds light on how quickly we can shift to an attitude that isn’t as loving/encouraging as it should be
Was very blessed!
Twitted by benedictYeo on November 26th, 2009 8:17 pm

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Peter on November 26th, 2009 9:32 pm

My message is to Pastor and not to the others.

It was not my intention to assasinate character, but to uphold how we all Christians are improving and maturing with time.

Not grow shallower to unwholesome shallowness as we age.

Time pass.

wounds heal.

So if you are not Pastor, this message is NOT for you.

God bless, Pastor. Your message was very good.
Evan on November 26th, 2009 9:50 pm

Thanks pastor.

This sermon truly bless me and make me love God more…

GBU (GOD Bless You)
Fani on November 27th, 2009 12:54 am

This is a very important and well-balanced message Pastor. Can I please request that you say more on points 2 and 5. In particular, how these two are reconciled: how does it become spiritual warfare when it is the work of God in our lives?
HY on November 27th, 2009 2:39 am

Hi Pst,

Thanks so much for taking the time to write so as to encourage others. Your posts and messages never fail to inspire and add faith!

Indeed, sometimes it is tough to remember all these when times get tough and situations are trying, but i like what you said about obedient endurance. That even through tough situations, all we gotta do is do what we possibly can and endure it through faith. Knowing that God is ultimately still in control and that all things will work together for the good to those who love Him.

Thanks for posting this post as a reminder again for the need to endure. You are an inspiration!

Thank you, Pastor!
ihatechurch on November 27th, 2009 4:19 am

love it p. kong. Faith is believing no matter what, alot of us forget God is not our genie … you crushed it again.
Oswald Loh on November 27th, 2009 8:17 am

Pastor,

Thanks for the courages in your word for us to trust in God and have Faith in Him when trouble comes. I will learn not to ask WHY it happened, but HOW to overcome it.
DL on November 27th, 2009 10:59 am

Great article! Spiritual maturity is not just about loving and trusting God during good times; but conitnue to love and trust Him even during bad times…

I am so blessed by your blog! It sure encourages those of us who are going through a tough time. Thank you :)
Xiao Ping on November 27th, 2009 11:43 am

Hi Pastor,
Thanks for sharing this wonderful word. I am very blessed and encouraged to overcome all my problems, not to run away..

Although we are in the spiritual warfare, we must seek him even more… I won’t give up, Pastor! :)

Build up my spiritual core strength by daily giving thanks for good things and bad things…
Pray for you, sun and dayan, God bless you abundantly! :0
Twitted by jasontham87 on November 27th, 2009 12:07 pm

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Joel lzx on November 27th, 2009 4:14 pm

Hi Pastor,
I am so blessed by your article.I am also so encouraged whenever I read your blog.
Continue to blog Pastor :D
Stanley on November 27th, 2009 5:21 pm

It was a very good sermon about Job and surely we have to look at bigger picture, that Job suffering is also ultimately for the purpose of bringing glory to God and grace on 3 of his friends, to be interceded and received forgiveness from God.
While the whole story of Job was focussed on God moulding Job’s character which is very edifying, the Book of Job happens to be my favourite book. I would always refer to this book in time of trial, sufferings and persecutions, and refer to the same verse :-
Job 1:21 “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, And naked shall I return there. The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; Blessed be the name of the LORD.”
Is there anyone on earth can stand up as righteous man of God and be willing to suffer for the sake of others in order to intercede or leads them to the complete forgiveness from God?
How many of us are humble and really know how to acknowledge that everything that we have belongs to God? Many would silently said to themselves “Yes, Lord. Everything that I have belongs to you.” But really? What if one day you are being challenged by the voice of our Holy Spirit “Sell away your everything and do the mission work in another country.” What would be your response? Many would ignore the voice and said to themselves “No, that cannot be, God had blessed me financially for me to enjoy. The voice is not from God. Must be my own thinking.” Or Lord Jesus sent someone with no job, homeless and do not have much cloth, to be under your care. What would be your action? Would you thank God for that or would you sent this person away because he or she doesn’t fit your criteria of “Good people” or maybe you’ll feel the pinch of having to gave up your money, so you have to “get rid of the person” so that you will not be burdened or trouble.

Sufferings (work of Satan) ====> Revelation of Gods work =====> Salvation (Eternal life)

At the beginning Satan had already said “Skin for Skin”. That was the Vengence Satan seeked to afflict Job, but God only allow him to take his possesion and not to touch his life. Supposely 4 person but only the 3 friends was being forgiven because Job had interceded for them. But where is the arrogant young man who didn’t show respect to anyone but himself? Yes the story about Job is to correct his inner being but more than that, he helped 3 of his good friends to receive forgiveness from God.

Here is the Wholesome comparison of Story of how the sufferings of one man can lead to the glory and grace of God :-
JOB
The invisible hands of God, let Job suffered (Satan said “Skin for skin”), so that 3 of his friends, Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar can receive forgiveness from God. Thus Job’s suffering not only bring about his renewal of character but also leads to interceding for friends to receive salvation.

Lord Jesus
Let satan entered in Judas to cause Lord Jesus be crucified; ultimate suffering unto death, his resurrection brings about the Salvation of people; nations upon nations.

Can you see the same pattern? And JOB’s live wasn’t touch because he was not God, he needed to be alive to intercede for other people. Same for you and me, the sufferings which is temporary is to bring about the glory and grace of God for other people. Of course, there are some Christians who had lost their live. Who are we to question God’s Wisdom?

Sufferings (work of Satan) ====> Revelation of Gods work =====> Salvation (Eternal life)

How many of us can really partake the followship with the sufferings of Lord Jesus, so that we can know the power of His resurrection?

Phlippians 3:10-11 “that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if by any means, I may attain to the resurrecting from the dead.”

Many would had run away, just like Prophet Jonah, the rebellious prophet; who needed to be throw into the “biggest Jail house” of the lifetime in order to repent and do God’s work.

You may want to read about the comparison between Lot and Job, selfish versus God fearing, cursed versus blessed.

http://www.esharingportal.com/viewstory.php?sid=50&chapter=1
Frank Godberg on November 27th, 2009 7:10 pm

Dear Pastor Kong

I do not have words enough to say how much the article ” When bad things happen to Good people” tocuhed my heart. this i am going to share with my church on the Early morning prayer service on decmber the 1st.

God has given you such great insight and I am so privileged to learn from your insights. Thank you Pastor.

Many hidden truths have been unfolded which would certainly minister to the hurting people.

your servant,

Frank Godberg
sonia on November 27th, 2009 7:50 pm

thanks reverend. today morning i had an urge to get up and God guided me to this sermon..excatly what i wanted to hear at this point of my life.thanks again. God bless you as always!
ihopeiamwrong on November 27th, 2009 9:06 pm

Pastor Kong, judge yourself with Matthew 23 and you will know where you have fallen! EVERYWHERE!!!
ihopeiamwrong on November 27th, 2009 9:29 pm

I do not know your reason for writing this blog, but its just stupid.

Just to empahsize one point from Matt 23,

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.” Matt 23:27-28

Do not think you can whitewashed every wicked deed with a whitewashed image of a pastor, that’s why people fall for church sins. And do not think you can sin like nobody’s business and hide behind a whitewashed image. And do not think you can confess your sins and everyone gives you a standing ovation when it doesn’t just take a confession to right sinful behaviour. And do not think you can put up a sad countenance and everyone thinks everything’s going God’s way. And do not think words can do magic.
ihopeiamwrong on November 27th, 2009 10:04 pm

What have you learnt from your sufferings when you are still walking with humanistic, carnal mindedness and not spiritual mindedness?

Do you even acknowledge sin in the first place for there to be genuine repentance? CHC supports you because she is twice as dead as you have won and made her.

Know that if you trust in your idols for salvation, the Lord will not help you in the day of trouble.

“But where are your gods that you have made for yourselves? Let them arise, If they can save you in the time of your trouble;…” Jer 2:28
Peter on November 27th, 2009 10:55 pm

Hi Winston.

It may come as a surprise to CHC members, but Pastor Kong started out in his early twenties, and he made mistakes, believe it or not.

I think many teens believe Sun and Pastor Kong are born without original sin. That they were perfect pastor from Day 1.

sigh.

My post is to celebrate his maturity with age. And yes, I do celebrate it.

Anyway, I do recommend the book – By Jewish Writer Harold Kushner. Title of the book – when good things happen to bad people. Really good read. Topical.

And yes, this title of this blog sounds like wholesale copy from it.

Google it.

Thank you.
youareAlwayswrong-Nutshead on November 28th, 2009 1:25 am

Hey, ihopeiamwrong
I had found a Bible verse for you!
“God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! For you sit to judge me according to the law, and do you command me to be struck contrary to the law?” Acts 23:3
“For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection – and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both. Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees’ party arose and protested, saying, “We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God.” Acts 23:8-9
What are you doing, ihopeiamwrong? Passed judgement onto people!
Pastor Kong’s blog has been able to helped people put back their life together to serve God. What has you done?
You are talking about yourself.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.” Matt 23:27-28
WAIT A MINUTE, I DON’T THINK YOU DESCRIBED TO BE UNDER THESE CATEGORY OF PEOPLE, YOU ARE WORST THAN THAT!
ihopeiamwrong, You are an OPENED WHITEWASHED TOMBS WITH EXPOSED DEAD MEN’S BONES CRAWLING WITH WORMS AND RATS…..YAKK…

youareAlwayswrong-Nutshead ha ha ha ha
youareAlwayswrong-Nutshead on November 28th, 2009 1:38 am

Hey, ihopeiamwrong

Know what? I admit I am always wrong, that’s why I need God and I need the Holy Spirit to teach me and guide me.

Have a life! Hope that one day deep in your heart you would change your name to ihopeiamalways_right_with_God

youareAlwayswrong-Nutshead
TKH on November 28th, 2009 2:23 am

Dear All,

I think we don’t need to react to ihopeiamwrong … let the readers decide who is right or wrong …

It really seem absurb to me that he needs to react in such a way to such an encouraging article …

God bless you all, especially ihopeiamwrong ….

TKH
Jenaline Low on November 28th, 2009 2:37 am

Dear Pastor Kong,

Thank you for preaching about the sufferings of Job over 2 weekends in church and this write up. I am really blessed by it and it helps me to identify with what I have experienced in my own life.

Needless to say, there will be reactions from different reader as this is an open platform…for those who are able to received the goodness in this message, they will benefit and I did!

May the Lord continue to direct your path as you serve him tiredlessly.

Jenaline
Ben Jen on November 28th, 2009 7:59 am

Dear all,

For a clearer revelation of this topic, please get Pastor Joseph Prince’s message:

Why Good People Suffer — Answers From Job’s Story (CD Sermon)

If you have ever wondered why “bad” people prosper while “good” people suffer in this world, this message is for you. Here, Joseph Prince sheds light on this oft-debated issue within the context of Job’s story, and reveals how the real question is whose standard of “goodness” or “badness” is being used as a measure. Be surprised as you discover what Job’s real problem was and how God resolved the matter for him. Find out also how Job’s story ties in with God’s plan to redeem humanity through Jesus and His sacrifice at Calvary!
Andri Otto on November 28th, 2009 8:36 am

Thanks for the wonderful blog, pastor :)
It answers some of my questions on life.

I will meditate on it and forward this to my friends.
God bless you
- on November 28th, 2009 8:57 am

Thanks Pastor for the wonderful blog.
I think it would have been fairer to the readers if you had given due acknowledgement to your source documents

When Bad Things Happen to Good People
by Harold S. Kushner
BUY IT NEW$11.95 List price

Pub. Date: August 2004
176pp
Sales Rank: 3,689
When bad things happens to good people

I recall the advertisement on intellectual property in the cinema.

Piracy will lead to the death of the printing / writing industry.

So what if the writer is into Judaism? Nothing wrong in quoting him if you are going to use the title of his book as the header for your blog.

I cannot believe this is an actual accident cos Harold is so popular in the Theology world.

To be original, do blog about why Good things happen to bad people. and you can write about lasciviousness in people etc etc.
How they are dressed in bikinis, dancing in clubs like no tomorrow, blessed with a son and pastor husband, and in that stage of undress, is still the ROLE MODEL OF THE UNCHURCHED THOUGHOUT ASIA.

I personally think that showing a lacy black bra in a public restaurant with your son is in particularly bad taste. Ooogling at half naked men and laughing at youtube is not so encouraging to those who look up to her as a role model – unless you refer to role models who have fallen.

That was a unique bad blog entry – unwholesome shallowness.

This was better, but recognition was not given to source documents. That was bad.

Anyway, Christmas is a month away, we us look forward to that, and clearer thoughts, clearer minds,

Stop piracy.
David Ngu on November 28th, 2009 9:50 am

Dear Pastor,

What a great sharing! This is the answer that I have been looking for a long long time. To be frank with you, my church has lost 3 mighty gospel warriors cum CGL within this year. We all are very sad and sometimes couldn’t understand God’s will. But your sharing is the great answer to everyone. Thank you so much, Pastor!
garfield on November 28th, 2009 1:44 pm

I think when bad things happen to good people, it test not only on the faith of the victims themselves, God is also testing on the people around them, to see whether they will have help the victims. There are people who claim to be true friends, or good Christians, but will either run away, do nothing or scorn at the victims.
apple on November 28th, 2009 4:06 pm

If what Ben Jen said is real, I am not surprised too cos KH is too busy travelling to and forth for his selfish wife. Where does he have time to seek God for personal revelation. Easiest way is for him to do some research and get someone else’s stuff and post it off as his own. What a pastor indeed!!!

Ben Jen on November 28th, 2009 7:59 am Dear all,

For a clearer revelation of this topic, please get Pastor Joseph Prince’s message:

Why Good People Suffer — Answers From Job’s Story (CD Sermon)

If you have ever wondered why “bad” people prosper while “good” people suffer in this world, this message is for you. Here, Joseph Prince sheds light on this oft-debated issue within the context of Job’s story, and reveals how the real question is whose standard of “goodness” or “badness” is being used as a measure. Be surprised as you discover what Job’s real problem was and how God resolved the matter for him. Find out also how Job’s story ties in with God’s plan to redeem humanity through Jesus and His sacrifice at Calvary!

Andri Otto on November 28th, 2009 8:36 am Thanks for the wonderful blog, pastor :)
It answers some of my questions on life.

I will meditate on it and forward this to my friends.
God bless you

- on November 28th, 2009 8:57 am Thanks Pastor for the wonderful blog.
I think it would have been fairer to the readers if you had given due acknowledgement to your source documents

When Bad Things Happen to Good People
by Harold S. Kushner
BUY IT NEW$11.95 List price

Pub. Date: August 2004
176pp
Sales Rank: 3,689
When bad things happens to good people

I recall the advertisement on intellectual property in the cinema.

Piracy will lead to the death of the printing / writing industry.

So what if the writer is into Judaism? Nothing wrong in quoting him if you are going to use the title of his book as the header for your blog.

I cannot believe this is an actual accident cos Harold is so popular in the Theology world.

To be original, do blog about why Good things happen to bad people. and you can write about lasciviousness in people etc etc.
How they are dressed in bikinis, dancing in clubs like no tomorrow, blessed with a son and pastor husband, and in that stage of undress, is still the ROLE MODEL OF THE UNCHURCHED THOUGHOUT ASIA.

I personally think that showing a lacy black bra in a public restaurant with your son is in particularly bad taste. Ooogling at half naked men and laughing at youtube is not so encouraging to those who look up to her as a role model – unless you refer to role models who have fallen.

That was a unique bad blog entry – unwholesome shallowness.

This was better, but recognition was not given to source documents. That was bad.

Anyway, Christmas is a month away, we us look forward to that, and clearer thoughts, clearer minds,

Stop piracy.
LF on November 28th, 2009 4:33 pm

Gimme a break!

Opps… would you say that line above would also be an infringement of copyright?

[FYI: Gimme a Break!, an American sitcom which aired on NBC from 1981 until 1987.]

Google it and you will know.

In fact, in the new media age, google anything and you will find many similarities.

And your point is?

FYI: And Your Point Is? (Paperback)~ J. Douglas Jefferys (Author) ]

Anyway back to Kushner…

Have YOU read Kushner, since you say that its so ‘popular’?

If you have, you will find that the content and revelations that Kushner & Kong Hee have are not a replica or pirated version of each other.

Its amazingly simplistic and naive thinking that just because generic phrases like ‘when bad things happen to good people’ are used, there is plagiarism involved.

Get a Life
[18 Oct 2009 ... Get a Life is a television sitcom that was broadcast in the United States on the Fox Network from September 23, 1990, to March 8, 1992]

Gimme a break.

Want to play the role of satan as an accuser of the brethren also need some substance.
Stanley on November 28th, 2009 8:05 pm

Hi All,

Let’s us not be an accuser saying who is copying who.
Our Holy Spirit is capable of revealing similar or exact message to anyone who is in faith.
==>Apple, “Easiest way is for him to do some research and get someone else’s stuff and post it off as his own. What a pastor indeed!!!” This is a very childish statement.

Even Pastor Kong is busy, he is still able to bring about great message to bless many people.
Back to my point again. Has our Holy Spirit not inspired different Authors Mattew, Mark, Luke and John to had writtened the New Testament?
==>Apple, you can be as critical as those critics and say that they copy each other and rephrase it to look and sounds different too.

Anyway, up to date I had written 52 articles (of which 11 of them is Poem). Surely, my English grammar needed improvement. One thing I am mind of is to make sure that what I going to write does not repeat what others had written. If any part of my article is to be taken from any writer’s source, I must get permission from the author, usually they don’t reply me. So I put credit back to them by putting a link back to them.
See my post above about looking at the episode of JOB in the bigger picture. It is original, thanks to our H.S. for the revelations. Would anyone accuse me of copying from another source?

Bottomline, if there is any lifting of notes from someone else’s source A credit must be given to the original Authors by putting a link back to their web site (if they have) or else quote the Author’s Name for any part of the notes that was taken from.

Let’s us not do the finger pointing. If a blog, a message had helped you. Give thanks and glory to God, Lord Jesus
CJF on November 29th, 2009 12:00 am

Dear Apple,

It is interesting that you are doing advertisment for Ps Prince in another Pastor’s blog … not too ethical … are you from his church?

Hmm … again I think maybe not, as I look at your comments and did not find much grace … : )

CJF
Rachael on November 29th, 2009 2:17 am

All, let us not have a debate about different churches nor judge our brothers and sisters without love. If a kingdom is divided it cannot stand. We are all imperfect people.

I used to be frm CHC in my teens but since have joined Cornerstone when i came back from overseas. I feel that different churches serve different needs like the different parts of the body of Christ and my current church is more suitable for me.

I stumbled upon this on my friend’s facebook page. Nevertheless, just want to say that this blog is really well written and good on ya Pastor Kong for exploring this topic that is not very popular as you have mentioned with modern day christians. As much as we believe in the saving grace of God, suffering is a part of christian life and many believers are tested and fall away also because of this issue. We have to press on and to know in our heart that God really does mean good to all those who love Him, to praise him regardless of circumstances. I guess God wants us to see the bigger picture; that there will be only one place where there will be no more pain and that is with Him in heaven.

Thanks for sharing your story and your words of wisdom. God bless!
undeserved on November 29th, 2009 2:21 am

Dear Pastor Kong and all,
I recently read the introduction to a new book and have been mightily blessed. This might be a refreshing read after all the talk on suffering. Here is an extract from the book:

The new covenant that we are under today is based completely on the removal of our sins by the blood of Jesus! “For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God to cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” Depending on your own efforts to deserve favor from God is considered “dead works”. It is God’s desire for us to depend wholly on the unmerited favor of Jesus.

God Himself said, “For if that first covenant [the covenant of law] had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second [the covenant of grace].” The Christian life today is not a religion based on what you are doing or not doing. The reality is that the Christian life is not a religion at all. It is about having a relationship based completely on receiving WHAT GOD HIMSELF HAS DONE ON THE CROSS! When you receive completely what Jesus has done for you, your “doing” will flow effortlessly.

The unmerited favor of God will flow like a mighty torrential river into every parched area of your life, be it your physical body, marriage, career or finances, when you see Jesus! The more you increase in the knowledge of our loving Savior Jesus Christ and His finished work at the cross, the more God’s unmerited favor will be multiplied in your life. And it is His unmerited favor that will cause you to enjoy success beyond your natural intelligence, qualifications and ability!

Some people think that grace will compromise God’s holiness. Absolutely not! The standards that grace sets are much higher than the standards of the law of Moses. When you are under grace, you will effortlessly fulfill and even superexceed the expectations of the law of Moses!

God’s unmerited favor is not a topic. It is not a teaching. GOD’S UNMERITED FAVOR IS THE GOSPEL! God’s unmerited favor is not a subject. It is a PERSON, AND HIS NAME IS JESUS. When you have Jesus, you have unmerited favor! Jesus and unmerited favor do not exist separately. Unmerited favor is embodied in His entire being and in His finished work at Calvary.
undeserved on November 29th, 2009 2:25 am

at the same time pastor kong, it is undeniable that you and Sun are suffering. not only do you have to deal with criticism from people who don’t understand you, you need to fly to and from the usa just to be with your family. Sun needs to be away from Singapore fulfilling the cultural mandate. watching the video of her in new york, she is indeed suffering. meeting after meeting – she is so busy. and she must really miss singaporean/malaysian food so much that she mistook the malaysian restaurant for heaven! hahaha. seeing that she ordered a whole table full of food, we can tell that she must miss singapore very much. she is indeed a prime example of suffering! thank you pastor kong and Sun!
rara-roma on November 29th, 2009 2:56 am

test, test.

My previous post didn’t seem to go up.. ?
rara-roma on November 29th, 2009 3:00 am

Hello dear admin please help. My “testing” post appeared… but my “reply” comment is under the status of “Your comment is awaiting moderation.”

Please advice, thanks!
Ben Jen on November 29th, 2009 7:45 am

Jesus Is Your Restorer And Nourisher

Ruth 4:15
15And may he be to you a restorer of life and a nourisher of your old age…

Famine impoverished the life of Naomi, an Israelite. But it was the deaths of her husband and two sons that left her completely destitute. (Ruth 1:1–5) Or so she thought, until Boaz, who was a wealthy and close relative, entered her life.

As her kinsman-redeemer, Boaz married Ruth, Naomi’s widowed daughter-in-law. And through that union, Naomi had a grandson. The birth of her grandson gave her a new lease of life, causing the womenfolk in her village to declare that the restorer of life and the nourisher of her old age had come into her life. (Ruth 4:14–16)

Boaz is a picture of Jesus, our kinsman-redeemer. Jesus became our kinsman when He was born into this world as one like us. And He became our Redeemer when He paid with His life and blood at the cross to redeem us.

Jesus gave Himself to us as our restorer of life and nourisher of our old age. When the restorer of life is in our lives, what we have lost can be restored. (Joel 2:25−26) And with the nourisher of our old age in us, our bodies can be gloriously renewed even though we advance in our years.

That is why when Moses died at the age of 120, his eyes were not dim and his natural vigor was not diminished. (Deuteronomy 34:7) Caleb, at 85 years old, could still drive out the giants from the land. God had literally nourished his body and made it strong for war. (Joshua 14:11) Sarah was certainly rejuvenated in her old age by God for she was still desirable to a king at the age of 90. (Genesis 20:1–2) God even renewed her womb. She received strength to conceive seed (Hebrews 11:11), giving birth to Isaac in her old age.

Beloved, God is outside of time and your faith in Him brings you into this timeless zone. There, what the years have stolen will be restored. And even as your years increase, you will not grow weak and weary because the restorer of life and nourisher of your old age is in you!
Amy on November 29th, 2009 9:06 am

hi undeserved

thanks for sharing an excerpt of that book, which is really refreshing. I agree totally with what was written. It is definitely cheap grace that we are given, but priceless grace. May I know what is the title of the book and the author? Thanks
AMY II on November 29th, 2009 9:33 am

Hi Undeserved.
Yes i want to know the title of the book too.. the extract is awesome. Where can we get it? Thanks alot
Amy on November 29th, 2009 12:50 pm

undeserved,
paiseh, correction to my sentence above:
“It is definitely cheap grace that we are given, but priceless grace.” should read as “it is definitely NOT cheap grace that we are given, but priceless grace.”
michele on November 29th, 2009 1:26 pm

thanks Pastor, for the introduction to the book.

I will look up the book to improve my knowledge of the Word from a Jewish point of view.

Love
Patrick on November 29th, 2009 1:38 pm

Undeserved says

at the same time pastor kong, it is undeniable that you and Sun are suffering. not only do you have to deal with criticism from people who don’t understand you, you need to fly to and from the usa just to be with your family. Sun needs to be away from Singapore fulfilling the cultural mandate. watching the video of her in new york, she is indeed suffering.
Unquote

I understand Pastor does not receive a salary from the church. Can I check how does he pay for these weekly flights from and to LA. Is it for transportation costs under CHC Singapore expenses or other expenses to bring him to speak here?

Even if this is not part of the salary, is it fair that the church have to pay and fly him in, just so that his wife can enjoy a long holiday, watching Victoria secret Angels, American Music Awards etc etc?

Sun is suffering? wow. Watch the last 30 sec of this video.

She is in tears.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75T2RVR9nHA&feature=player_embedded

Please clarify on this transport cost.
Thanks.
- on November 29th, 2009 2:21 pm

to LF
gimme a break
and all other young CHC members.

Please take a leaf from Stanley who says, whenever you write anything, it is only right to google what you have written and check on your sources.

LF writes well, but alas, he is NOT Pastor Kong. (and I did expect a robust reply from CHC devotess)

The message here is uplifting, and quotes a lot from Job, part of the old testament which is shared with the Jewish faith.

Whether Pastor Kong forgot to give acknowledgement to Kushner, or did not even read his book at all, I do not know, and neither does LF.

We can only guess.

And this is the weakness of this blog. Pastor does not comment in the comment section, and we never know if he cheated, lied and lifted from that book.
I wish he did not. And I wish he will write in to tell us he did not or he sincerely forgot about Kushner….(since i know Pastor to be well read.).

Even Yancy wrote similar books entitled Disappointmemt with God and Where is God when it hurts, and we know these are unique views.

So all you new writers out there, be mindful in future.

Pastor, take this as a lesson learnt.

God bless.
- on November 29th, 2009 2:26 pm

And basically what angers me is that Kushner wrote this book after the death of his young son, in memory of him.

And I find it truly distasteful that someone can easily lift up this words, When bad things happens to good people, and if I keep quiet, Pastor conveniently makes it his!

Oh yeah Pastor is a busy man. Too busy to check.

Sorry, does not slide well with me.

Check, check, check. Don’t be lazy.
Barbie on November 29th, 2009 2:37 pm

Thanks Pastor for letting us write our views on your blog.

When I first started out on your blog in whiolesome shallowness, I really understood what you said about Sun and her works.

After reading though the 1000+ comments, i do feel a bit uncomfortable about Sun now and her latest youtubes posted in the last 200 comments.

but thank you for letting us read all the comments and having a chance to see for ourselves if we support Sun or not.

God bless.
apple on November 29th, 2009 5:00 pm

CJF

Who is advertising Ps Prince’s material here? Read carefully. It was Ben Jen who shared the article, not me! I accidentallly copied the whole chunk of comments above when I only wanted to share the comments by – on November 28th, 2009 8:57 am on the piracy issue.

Please read carefully before you spout nonsense! Talking about ethics, you don’t have the right to talk to me about ethics. Go talk to your pastor first about ethics before you dare to correct others outside your church on ethics!
michaellow on November 30th, 2009 12:10 am

Today I got become very sad. I see even the lautar of a megachurch not really got understand how to do exposition or exegete passage for meaning. He got say that “Yet as far as God was concerned, Job was not completely mature.” Then the lautar got add “Job was successful, spiritual and blameless, but HE WAS NOT BROKEN UNTO THE LORD. He felt he had ‘arrived’ (materially, parentally, socially, spiritually), but he was terribly deceived—a victim of his own illusion. God wanted to change that in him. IN HIS SOVEREIGN WISDOM, THE ONLY WAY TO BREAK JOB WAS TO TAKE HIM THROUGH A PERIOD OF ABJECT SUFFERING.

I oni can say this one is cart-before-horse theology, tio boh? Start with conclusion and then add versesso make argument linguistically sound but verses all quoted out of literary context. This one I got say before, looks like the CHC people got linguistic ability but got no literary ability. Where is the exposition of Job passages to show the truth of this lautar thesis? Is lautar own presumption that God want to break Job. The oni verse he got quote is Job 42:5 to support his thesis that “Although Job loved God with all his heart, he had not yet reached the point of total abandonment toward Him because Job had heard from God but had never seen the Lord (42:5). Got many Bible scholars always say a text without a context is a pretext. This one is true here when we got see context of 42:5. Context is actually Job 42:1-6 which is Job’s response to God’s questions (Job 38-39, 40-41) to Job about his omnipotence and sovereignty. In response Job is reduced to humble submission to God’s sovereignty. This response we got see in 42:1-6. This verse got nothing to do with God want to break Job because Job heard about God but not seen God. This one is just lautar presumption. Got see how 42:1 begins? “then Job replied to the Lord…” So how the lautar use this verse to support that God want to break Job because Job was not broken unto the Lord.

The main thesis of Job we got see is 1:11. satan got tell God, “but stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.” Satan is saying that Job is just a prosperity gospel guy, only believe in God because he is prosperous. If God remove prosperity surely can see Job got curse God. But we got see that Job lose everything, he oso never sin (1:22, 2:10). So where is the support for the lautar point that Job’s suffering is because ‘HE WAS NOT BROKEN UNTO THE LORD’. This one is presumption tioboh? So far never got show exegesis or observation of context and genre. This one I got say is just demonstrate linguistic ability but no have literary ability.

I know sure got plenty CHC cannon sure got aim for me but I not scared. I so sad to see loose handling of God’s Word. Some more is by a lautar. The next point about double portion of blessing oso show loose handling of God’s Word. But I got no time, going airport now. In few days time, I come back I will post. But like I got say before, the lautar get MDiv and DTh from a college called New Covenant International Theological Seminary. But when I got google is just a mailing address. Donch have campus address. Some more never got say who is faculty members, never show what is curriculum. Interested to know if MDiv must got study Hermeneutics or Exegesis or Bible languages like Greek, Hebrew.
rara-roma on November 30th, 2009 1:33 am

@undeserved

what an awesome post.. I believe that in life we go through various type of sufferings. To different people there are different perspectives and facets of sufferings as well. To some, suffering is good to become stronger, better and wiser. To others, suffering is a curse and bad thing to happen.

Well let’s take a look at the below 2 pictures:

1) Men and Women suffering from Earthquake Tragedies (Refer to picture at top)

2) Woman suffering from long hours of make up and hair bleaching and Hair Extensions and posing Photoshoot

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3792/169/111/536447986/n536447986_1770104_4758273.jpg

One thing’s universal, bad things DO happen to everyone. It’s just how bad we see it, and how good we believe Jesus can turn it around. :)
Amy on November 30th, 2009 7:42 am

michaellow
what a contradiction! I am worried now for the number of “linguistic knives” that would be hurled at you by his supporters.

But thanks anyway, for showing me that a reader cannot be lazy. He must keep on questionining the logic and the context, and in the case of a Christian, to always check back with the Holy Word of God!

patrick
you wrote this:
“I understand Pastor does not receive a salary from the church. Can I check how does he pay for these weekly flights from and to LA. Is it for transportation costs under CHC Singapore expenses or other expenses to bring him to speak here?
Even if this is not part of the salary, is it fair that the church have to pay and fly him in, just so that his wife can enjoy a long holiday, watching Victoria secret Angels, American Music Awards etc etc? ”

I think you have not been following his blog for a period of time. His supporters have been saying: “he started CHC with his own money”. Just go and figure what are they trying to say. I think all in CHC including the pastors and the congregation must have implicitly allowed it if ever those costs were covered from the church’s coffers. So no issue. :))
Evelyn on November 30th, 2009 10:34 am

Hi Pastor Kong,

Thanks for sharing this message.

My husband and I used to attend CHC. In fact our wedding was held at CHC and Pastor Tan is the one who officiated our wedding.

My husband passed away last year at age 34. He died of a rare cancer (the odd of contracting this rare cancer is one in a million), leaving me with 2 young daughters.

Even till now I struggle to understand why it happened, both physically and spiritual. Physically, my husband who was an army officer, exercise often with six packs body, does not drink nor smoke. All the cancer risk factors listed – old age, smoking, unhealthy lifestyle……….. I see none in my husband. Yet………

Spiritually I find it very cruel that God allows it to happen. I am also struggling with the thots about Heaven. My husband was diagnosed in Oct and passed away in Dec all in a very short time frame. Hence we didn’t talk much about it… or maybe I find it hard to talk about death because I was not ready to accept. He took pride in maintaining his body well and yet…….. hence after his death, I always wonder if he ever question God like I do now. And if he did ever question – will he still be in Heaven today?

I am still searching for answers and some told me that I may never get one till the day I meet God. I am finding it hard to attend church now because everytime I come to God’s presence, I will just wept…. Somehow I am just disappointed by how things turn out. We did not give up our faith even when he was diagnosed and keep on praying. I know my husband did not give up because he specifically told his parents not to blame God and a few times before he passed away, he said ‘Lord, I want to go home’. 3 weeks before he passed away, we had the same vision separately. He said he saw the Lord’s hand when he was praying to God to take away his pain but he could not reach out and touch His Hand. On the same night, I dreamt I fell and the Lord stretch out with His right hand for me but I was crying out in pain and didn’t hold His Hand. I don’t know what this vision/ dream meant……………

Though reading your message brings a little comfort as in bad thing do happen to good people but I am still struggling with answers……………

Eve
Amy on November 30th, 2009 11:56 am

Eve
Let me clarify my background first: I am from a conservative church and I do not belong to these mega churches.
But having read your post, I feel burdened to share. I lost my husband more than 12 years ago; he died from a heart attack while we were on the golf course in Malaysia. I went into a depression which lasted nearly 5 years. I can understand how you are feeling now.
One of our bible study group members just died some 2 weeks ago, while running on the treadmill. As a friend to the couple, I was once again confronted with death of a loved one and saw how his wife grieved.
But God in His plans has allowed all these things to pass for a reason. What we must do is to trust in God, and fulfill our duty as a mother to the young ones, and ensure that they too will be faithful to God. May you look towards God always to comfort and strengthen you.
:) on November 30th, 2009 2:13 pm

“heavenly minded is a peacemaker not a troublemaker..”

“though Life is a struggle, although u never see His hand but don’t give up! Keep and keeping on trust His Heart, for He will never forsake u, nor will never leave u”

“fear not, for I have redeemed you,.. I have called by your name, you are Mine, When u pass through the waters, I will be with you, and through the rivers, they will not overwhelm you, when you walk through the fire, you will not be burned or scorched, nor will the flame kindle upon you”

>. ^)b
Melvin Chen on November 30th, 2009 3:48 pm

Hi Patrick,

Well, first of all…he travels on his own expense, having said that, in the first place he won’t need to explain his personal finance since he didn’t take money from anyone.

Secondly, very publicly known is that he has got a boutique business and a well-travelled speaker.

Thirldy, you have implied that CHC paid to ‘fly him in’. Come on, he’s the founder and the senior pastor, not a guest speaker, why would he be paid to fly in? From where do you assume this?
Melvin Chen on November 30th, 2009 3:52 pm

Hi Eve,

So sorry and sad to hear of what has happened. I guess sometimes we may never know the answer, bad things do happen to good people, most often without a cause.

I pray you will find comfort and strength in God, perhaps one day God will reveal things to you, but even if not, know that He loves you.
Patrick on November 30th, 2009 5:02 pm

Thanks Melvin, but I guess you are guessing the answers.

Any concrete answer from anyone?

So based on Melvin, he does not get a transport allowance to travel to Singapore to give talks here.

But when he travels to other churches in the region, he is paid to be a speaker? ie – enough money to fly him in and out of Singapore every week to meet up with family and CHC church.

And as a founder of the church, prior to 2004 – he was already paid enough to support this lifestyle?

Just that with all the tithes, it is of course the right of the church to put money where they deem fit, subject to the guidance of the Holy spirit.

does it mean the church members need to be kept in the dark?
Patrick on November 30th, 2009 5:09 pm

This girl does not believe in a God.

http://shinscancerblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/memorial-service-shins-last-word.html

You may want to read up. And it is a balanced writeup.

I too have this love / unsure / who are you feeling – where God is concerned.

But I believe in Jesus and whatever bad things happened to us – He took our pains and save us.

If you don’t believe in that – would not the world become much much worse to live in?

Yes, good things happen to bad people, late comers to the field are paied the same wages, the prodigal Son was actually about that weird prodigal Father.

love, love love.
Ben Jen on November 30th, 2009 5:40 pm

Check this out:

Controversial Sun Ho MTV Raises Concerns… Again

Wednesday, Sep. 30, 2009 Posted: 1:56:00AM HKT

A controversial music video featuring Singaporean pop singer Sun Ho in a raunchy dance act has drawn the attention of concerned members of the public once more.

This time, it was a recent weblog posting by Ho’s husband, The Rev Dr Kong Hee, which fanned the flames of debate.

In an entry titled Wholesome Shallowness? dated September 22 on his weblog, Kong, who founded the largest congregation in Singapore, appeared from the outset to be defending his wife’s decision to produce the 2007 music video.

The pastor defended the music video as a ‘drama’ about “a girl who has to take up an extra job at a nightclub to make ends meet for her family” and as ‘portraying’ “the reality of a fallen secular world”.

There were 341 responses at the time of writing, most of them affirming the MTV, with a significant number expressing concerns. Often, these concerns would be met with refutations.

Much of the responses were made within three days of the posting of the weblog article.

Among other things, the netizens were concerned that the short clip was a ‘stumbling block’ to new converts to the faith, a sexual temptation for men, and have a negative impact on children.

“The [criticism] that has been leveled at Sun [has] nothing to do with the fact that she is a [pastor’s] wife, but that she is a Christian who because of her success will influence many people,” said ‘Mark collard’ who felt that it was unnecessary for the singer to do such an act in an attempt to be more relevant to the non-Christian public.

The MTV, which has been posted online, shows Ho wearing scanty clothing and making sexually arousing moves.

‘H. Liao’ expressed: “[M]y only gripe is why can’t Sun maintain her pop status by upholding wholesome family values (prior to 2007)? Why must she be at the fringe of pop culture, i.e. club culture? Why must she promote debauchery and overt sexuality through her music?

“In the music scene, there are many pop singers who are successful and popular without resorting to the overt sexual portrayal in [C]hina [W]ine [the name of the MTV]? Yes [I] agree sex sells but [I] can think of artistes such as Colbie Caillat, Alicia Keyes, Kelly Clarkson or even Leona Lewis whose music videos are not as ‘wild’ as [C]hina [W]ine… An artiste expresses his/her values through their songs/performances. One wonders what are Sun’s values.”

‘Cana’ who introduced herself as a pastor’s wife, said: “[M]y daughter saw the ‘[C]hina [W]ine’ video [and felt] stumbled and [kept] asking me why [it is] like that… so my question is where is accountability?”

‘NOT AGREED’ felt that the MTV would sexually arouse its men viewers.

‘Teresa’ agreed.

“I think it can be more tasteful… It is critical as MTV which showcase such lewd settings will no doubt evoke some sort of lustful intention or reaction from some viewers.

“If we can minimise such scenarios, why not? God’s way of appealing to the mass is through our daily actions and it speaks a lot of the person if he/she succumbs to what the world thinks… Christians should uphold strong values that will change the world instead of just blindly agreeing with the pop culture.”

There was a comment from a netizen who introduced himself as an American who has lived there for more than 33 years, came to Singapore, and was recently introduced to the church co-founded by Ho.

“I really do not understand why one has to degrade oneself like this just to enter the U.S. pop market? I found the entire video to be vulgar, at best. And quite insulting to us Chinese!!” he said.

“I disagree that we have to lower our standards to that of non-Christians to the point that we conform to their standards. What’s the point? Sure, we should reach out to non-believers but we should NEVER EVER compromise our values!! What is RIGHT is RIGHT and what is WRONG is WRONG.”

Meticulous in defending the MTV, a number of netizens argued that it was harmless, mild ‘entertainment’ by industry and world standards, and had received more positive than negative comments, that criticisms were made on ‘religious’ grounds, that Ho has been a good role model as an enterprising humanitarian.

The Rev Kong revealed in his weblog posting that he ‘urged’ Ho to enter the pop music scene to ‘embody’ his convictions on the role of pop culture in the Christian mission, which she did in 2002 in Taiwan.

Criticisms, some of them bitter, came from pastors when the video was released, according to The Rev Kong himself.
Amy on November 30th, 2009 8:00 pm

Patrick

in a normal church setting, all baptised members would get together in an annual general meeting to pore over all the financial statements of the church. Any one who is not happy with certain increases in expenditure is entitled to stand up and the deacon/elder in charge of finances will have to answer. Not so sure in these mega churches. You mean CHC is run like a private enterprise, only a core group of pastors would decide on how to allocate finances, and baptised members are not given access?

But like what Melvin Chen has replied, Kong multitasks as a businessman and a church pastor. I suppose what he is trying to say is that Kong generates enough cashflow from his businesses to afford him his family’s present lifestyle.

But of course, your post copied from above may also be another interpretation.
“But when he travels to other churches in the region, he is paid to be a speaker? ie – enough money to fly him in and out of Singapore every week to meet up with family and CHC church.”
Capt. JONG N.Y. on November 30th, 2009 11:49 pm

I find some of the comments made are very mean and personal; please folks, read the Blog subject and respond accordingly in context. I think Pastor Kong has been more than generous in allowing slanderous remarks about him to even be posted unfiltered. Just shows his capacity and what a big-hearted person he is, although he is just 99% perfect. Sometimes 1 % irritating. oooooOOhhhhh…sorry boss.

First of all, I am not a CHC member and I have been tithing for more than ten years to CHC. Pastor Kong is a honorary volunteer – which means that he has tithe his entire rightful salary (more than 10%) to CHC, more than anyone can “crow” about themselves.

For those who without proof and alledged that CHC could be paying for his travelling expenses – please lah ….man is a muti-millionaire … his personally paid cell phone bill sometimes hit SG$5000. IF CHC wants to use 100% of my tithe to pay part of his travelling expenses, its my priviledge to be a token blessing to him – after all he’s my Man-of-God, who serves ‘food’ to my soul!

So to that one (like how they say it) , keep your loose change and have your wantan mee. Better to have a full stomach than a bitter spirit.

Our Pastors need to be blessed and continue to be under the annointing – no help if we slander them. Instead sow your seed of prayer over their lives that they are able to do the will of God for the good of all.

Sorry little-bit, but still love that one, by faith.

BTW I am speaking as a NON-MEMBER of CHC
just in case you think I try to sah-kah as a MEMBER.

Jesus is Lord !
Patrick on December 1st, 2009 9:14 am

thanks Cpt Jong.

It is good to clear the air that he is already a millionaire! And no need for the Church to support his travelling to Singapore and back to LA to visit his family on a weekly basis.

God bless.
Patrick on December 1st, 2009 10:15 am

to undeserved and rara roma

picture of Sun ’suffering’ at the hands of the hair colorist is absolutely funny. Ahhh…the things she needs to go thru cos her husband coaxed her to do the ‘unpleasant’ cultural mandate things.

All the sufferings. hahahaha!

Love the pic of the man at the back on the left, touching his head and kind of saying ‘oh my god’ which I believe is Sun fave expression

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3792/169/111/536447986/n536447986_1770104_4758273.jpg

underserved really know how to joke!

:)
- on December 1st, 2009 1:26 pm

today’s devotion from Pastor blog is awesome.

Reminds me so much of Sun and her lascivious ways, and the message within.

1) God punishes sin even among His own people. Some people falsely assume that because God is merciful, He will not judge. They are deceived into thinking that because we are living in the new covenant, God’s requirement for holy living has been replaced by His love and grace. No! Rather, the opposite is true. God demands more since we are in Christ and we have the Spirit of grace (Heb. 10:26-31). God hates sin most in those who are nearest and dearest to Him. The Bible says He will chasten those whom He loves (12:5-6). God is no respecter of persons and because He is a righteous Judge, He has to implement justice on those who sin.

2) When God chastens His people, it is to correct them and reform them, not to gratify their enemies. Hebrews 12:7 says, “If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?”

3) When God’s people humble themselves, God will return to them with His mercy. God will let His people know what grace, mercy and favor He has in store for those who return to Him. As any good father would, God is quick to forgive, restore, and rejoice over a sinner who repents! When we understand how God deals with His own people, let us take heed not to walk in pride and error before Him. Do what Paul says in 1 Timothy 4:16 (TLB), “Keep a close watch on all you do and think. Stay true to what is right and God will bless you and use you to help others.”

Thanks so much Pastor, you give me faith that God does not just dispense ‘Cheap’ grace. We need to carry his cross, instead of prancing around ‘fancy free’.

Hope her next video will not let all of us Christians down.
Melvin Chen on December 1st, 2009 3:58 pm

Hi Amy,

On the matter of AGM…CHC has several hundreds of Executive members, who’re volunteers, not paid by the church. These are mainly leaders who serve in the church. Contrary to what you say, it is not true that CHC is run only by a group of select pastors. In any case, members all have freewill of voting – with their feet, to walk out if the church goes haywired.

For practical reasons, it would be impossible to have all baptised members to be in CHC’s AGM, since baptism is freewill and unrestricted, anyone can be baptised, but that does not mean everyone should have the voting rights to the management of the church.

A church is not a public-listed company, where all ’shareholders’ have a right to vote. Having said that, Singapore is a free society, where there is freedom of speech, You and I can be here on such a blog, speaking your mind freely, but that doesn’t mean anyone or everyone can have a right to govern any organisation.

In any case, such AGMs are mandated by the Registry of Societies, there are proper governance and rules on all these.
Choo Gang on December 1st, 2009 10:14 pm

Hi Hokkien buddy, nice to see you back. I hope you had a good holiday. To my limited knowledge, it looks like you made some salient points about the interpretation by the big kahuna. So far, I have not seen any rejoinder. Perhaps they don’t have any reply to your challenges. Perhaps, they will just pretend that it is your hokkienism that is at fault. It fogs your points making it impossible for them to grasp your points. Anyway, I took an elective in English so I hope you don’t mind if I take the initiative to translate your words into a vernacular that the cool and hip CHC people can understand. So here goes your own words hokkien buddy.

“Today I feel very sad. I can see that even the megachurch #1 does not really know how to do an exposition or exegete a passage to discern its meaning. He said, “Yet as far as God was concerned, Job was not completely mature.” Then the megachurch #1 added, “Job was successful, spiritual and blameless, but HE WAS NOT BROKEN UNTO THE LORD. He felt he had ‘arrived’ (materially, parentally, socially, spiritually), but he was terribly deceived—a victim of his own illusion. God wanted to change that in him. IN HIS SOVEREIGN WISDOM, THE ONLY WAY TO BREAK JOB WAS TO TAKE HIM THROUGH A PERIOD OF ABJECT SUFFERING.

I can only say this should be called cart-before-horse theology. First you (he?) start with the conclusion and then add the verses. This makes the argument linguistically sound but yet the verses are quoted out of their literary context. I have said this before, it looks like the CHC people have got linguistic ability but they have no literary ability. Where is the exposition of the (relevant) Job passages to show the truth of the thesis of this megachurch #1? It is his presumption that God wanted to break Job. The only (supporting) verse he has quoted is Job 42:5 to support his thesis that, although Job loved God with all his heart, he had not yet reached the point of total abandonment toward Him because Job had heard from God but had never seen the Lord (42:5). There are many scholars who regularly state that a (Bible) text without a context is a pretext. This is true here especially when we look at the context of Job 42:5. The (immediate) context is actually Job 42:1-6 which is Job’s response to God’s queries (Job 38-39, 40-41) to Job regarding his omnipotence and sovereignty. Job’s only response is to be reduced to humble submission to God’s sovereignty. This is the response we can see in 42:1-6. This verse (42:5) has nothing to do with God’s wanting to break Job since Job (only) heard about God but has not yet seen God. The thesis based on this verse is just a presumption of the megachurch #1. Look at how 42:1 begins, “then Job replied to the Lord…” How can the megachurch #1 use this verse to support the point that God wanted to break Job because Job was not broken unto the Lord.

The main thesis of Job is actually seen in 1:11. Satan tells God, “but stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.” Satan is saying that Job is just another believer in the prosperity gospel. He only believes in God because he is prosperous. If God were to remove Job’s prosperity, it will surely lead to Job cursing God. However, we can see that although Job lost everything, he still did not sin (1:22, 2:10). So where is the support for the point made by the megachurch #1 that Job’s suffering is because ‘HE WAS NOT BROKEN UNTO THE LORD’. Am I not right to say this point is just a presumption? So far, he has not displayed any exegesis or observation of the context and genre. What is done so far just demonstrate linguistic ability only! There is no display of literary ability.

I know that surely there will be plenty of CHC cannons aiming for me but this done not scare me. I am saddened to see such loose handling of God’s Word. Furthermore, this has been done by a megachurch #1. The next point about the double portion of blessing also shows loose handling of God’s Word. However, I have no time because I am going to the airport now. When I return in a few days, I will post (this). I have mentioned this before. The megachurch#1 got his MDiv and DTh from New Covenant International Theological Seminary. Yet when I googled (this name), I got only a mailing address. There is no campus address. Furthermore, (the website) did not mention who the faculty members were and also did not mention the curriculum contents. I am interested to know if their MDiv offers studies in Hermeneutics, Exegesis or Bible languages like Greek, Hebrew.”

Hope this translation does you justice, hokkien brother. I am a bit puzzled though. I googled New Covenant International Theological Seminary and found one which I think is the same as what you mentioned. The address is 7255 S Military Trail, Lake Worth, FL 33463. But I also saw at this address a church, Trinity Assembly of God Church. I am a bit dumbfounded by your observation. I hope the CHC crowd can confirm with us that it is not just a paper mill. I sincerely wish that New Covenant Seminary is not just a paper mill. The implications are just too horrendous to consider.
Van F on December 1st, 2009 10:32 pm

to ben jen.
quit it can you? stop attacking people.. and live in peace.. this article totally has nothing to do with what you say alright? man… im getting irritated by all these. christians are annoying at times.. :(
Wendy Ang on December 1st, 2009 10:34 pm

Hi Patrick,

Pst Kong is not living in lack now by the grace of God and because He had worked hard at the things that God has entrusted him to do and he was and still is wise in managing his finances. If he was greedy, which I believe is what you think him to be, he would not have volunteered to become an honorary pastor and he definitely would not give thousands of dollars in offerings to the church every week. Many years ago, when Kong and Sun started the church, they gave an offering of 2 thousand dollars when prompted by the Holy Spirit and mind you, that was every single cent they had with them. They didn’t even had any money for transport or for food after. They have come this far only because these are the blessings of God and they have been good stewards of it.

May I ask therefore, who are you to question the man and woman that God has anointed and blessed? Do you not know that the bible says, “Touch not my anointed”? I think his actions speak louder than your words, don’t you think so? All you mentioned are just words and accusations while they have twenty years of actions and character to back them up. God will hold you accountable for every wrongful accusation you make… The devil is the Accuser, and whenever you accuse someone, you are doing his dirty deeds for him. I hope and pray that you will be clear whose side you are on with the comments that you have stated here because the words that you said and the spirit behind it is not something that is like Jesus Himself.
Wendy Ang on December 1st, 2009 10:59 pm

Hi Choo Gang,

Thank you for your interest in Pastor Kong’s theological education. 4 years of bible school education and 28 years of full-time ministry preaching to hundreds and thousands of people worldwide and here you are concerned that his degrees are paper mill? Amazing.
Choo Gang on December 2nd, 2009 8:19 am

Hi Wendy

Thank you for your no-answer. Preaching to hundreds and thousands of people worldwide really means nothing if your big kahuna cannot handle the Word of God. Catholic, Buddhist and Muslim preachers too preach to hundreds of thousands in their sermons and homilies. Are you saying they are right because they have an audience of thousands? You may be listening sincerely but still your sincerity can be lead astray. This situation has been warned of in 2 Tim 4:3,4 “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”

Amazing! It looks like michaellow has made a good point for proper seminary training. How does a preacher formulate sound doctrine if he does not know sound principles for studying God’s Word? No one has considered engaging his point. I wonder why? It is worthwhile to consider his points! I googled Singapore bible colleges and found out that what he said is true. All the local bible colleges mention their faculty members, the seminary training their faculty members underwent and the colleges/universities where they received their post-graduate education. I checked Singapore Bible College, Theological Centre of Asia, AOG Bible College and Trinity Theological College. The academic programs were mentioned as well as who were the faculty members heading their programs. I am sure all this establishes their credibility.
passerby2 on December 2nd, 2009 10:37 am

I agree that after 28 years, maybe Pastor should settle down to a proper sabbatical to sharpen his saw.

He may not have been properly guided by the Word for the past 28 years – given all the recent write up about lasciviousness, exigesis(?), context, pretext etc

While you may be annointed by God, it is good to not just ‘wing it’.

And if the critics stop their jobs, we would still be in the old testament period, or under the one True Roman Catholic Church.

So Wendy, let us continue to be critical and speak our minds – Pastor needs it to and he exhorts us to do it.

God bless.
Mark on December 2nd, 2009 11:28 am

Dear Pastor,

Thank you for such an incredible devotion “When Bad Things Happen To Good People” !!

I think it’s good to read devotions when i wake but even better to receive new and insightful revelations!

Thanks for always working so hard you are really the REAL DEAL =P all the best with your fasting too =)

-Marklin
Melvin Chen on December 2nd, 2009 1:52 pm

I read with some amazement that some people would question Pastor Kong’s theological qualifications, when he is a fully-ordained minister and a Doctor in Theology, respected and endorsed by many world-renowned ministers around the world.

He’s not just preached to ‘tens of thouands’ of people, but planted churches all over Asia, he’s a true-blue missionary, church planter and teacher of the Word. He’s not just a touch-and-go person, but he has got more depth than you think.

And some still would suggest that he might ‘not be properly guided’ for 28 years…oh please. He is not a lone ranger, coming out with a weird theology from nowhere, all the things that he teach are basic christian truths taught in any good seminary.

oh yeah, passerby2….yes, surely you can speak your mind, sure Pastor encourages that…but don’t forget also, he doesn’t need more enemies. Don’t try to play the ‘necessary critic’ like he needs more of them…..oh, come on !
Amy on December 2nd, 2009 1:56 pm

hi Choo Gang,

thanks for your wonderful effort of clarifying michaellow’s proposition so as to bring across some important points in case the hip cool CHC people could not understand the heavily Hokkien accented exposition.

You remind me very much of PCK Pte Ltd, where the ang mo pai younger brother Choo Gang played the supporting role to the older and quirkier brother Choo Kang. :))
Melvin Chen on December 2nd, 2009 2:17 pm

very funny. wonder why pple think CHC pple are ‘ang mo pai’. Its a matter of time, place and situation to speak in the right language. We probably preach and speak in chinese more than many others….
Choo Gang on December 2nd, 2009 3:07 pm

Hi Melvin

Actually, you have not answered the point raised by Michaellow. Is it a proper theological college? If it is, why are there no facts about its faculty and curriculum? I have also noticed it does not have a Carnegie classification. I am a big fan of michaleelow and he did ask if your boss did bible languages and hermeneutics to get his doctor of theology.

I think Michaellow’s point is that your big kahuna’s quality of bible interpretation is not very impressive. Just because your big kahuna is accepted world-wide does not mean he is above scrutiny. Madoff was accepted world-wide as a financial expert too. Closer to home, you forgot the Renci boss too was acccepted as someone who could do no wrong.

I have not missed the fact that none of you have engaged him in his points about your poor cool hip crowd’s interpretations and translations. And since, you said “we probably preach and speak in chinese more that any others”, I believe you should have no problem understanding his hokkienism.
Micheal on December 2nd, 2009 4:00 pm

Choo Gang, Amy and others.

I think it is already clear that it is a paper mill thing and no one else can prove otherwise.

Please – even Ex-Pastor Sun was once a founding Pastor and was removed after she was sent away on a cultural mandate. All these are pretty hard for CHC to defend. Even ex-members indicated she did some prayers over them in the past.

I guess the CHC defense is that if God appointed him to be a pastor, who says he needs any professional certs / degree etc etc.

And we cannot deny he is doing God’s work and moving many teens on the path to God.
passerby2 on December 2nd, 2009 4:09 pm

Melvin, you say he does not need more enemies,

then why does he write such a bad blog post about wholesome shallowness and not make any amends about it?

Really, a bunch of Pastors called Sun a whore?

Or just one pastor whispered to him in love and kindness, and the rest were from some boh-liao youtube comments that he mix together.

And the loud advertisements about eight orphanages, pretty embarassing to do good and announce like some smug pharisees ain;t it?

Why make the readers upset with words like Pharisees, going to heaven after whores and tax collectors.

Right, Pastor don;t need more enemies, if he knows how to temper his words.

Worse one – Role model to the unchurched THOUGHOUT Asia.

Man, I kinda threw up after reading that line, esp after all the latest videos on mynameissun.com…..a past interview quoted her as saying ‘I need my manager to make me more sexy’.

It sickens me so. Role model. You mean bad role model?
passerby2 on December 2nd, 2009 4:17 pm

sorry, I spoke out of line.

You said…
He’s not just preached to ‘tens of thouands’ of people, but planted churches all over Asia, he’s a true-blue missionary, church planter and teacher of the Word. He’s not just a touch-and-go person, but he has got more depth than you think.
unquote.

Yes, he has more depth, until he talks about his wife, then he becomes as shallow as the next person……or shallower

And he puts up a whole blog to disprove her shallowness, and in doing so, shows his shallowness when judgement of his wife is concerned.

shallow wholesomeness…..sad.

oops, I speak out of line again.

Sorry.
Elihu on December 2nd, 2009 5:03 pm

Funny how all these arguments reminded me of the bible (Please let me know if you see the parallelism, or only me…) when the Pharisees questioned Jesus:

“Who is Jesus to say all these? Whose authority is He speaking?”
[Which bible school he attends... Haha]

When all Jesus was concerned about was those who are hurting and sick. Remember when Jesus was healing the sick (John 9:3), he was revealing the mystery of the sickness to the blind man, all the Pharisee was concerned about was (John 9:13-34) to attack him.

The bible is alive huh … If Jesus could not convince the Pharisees after all the intellectual debates, what makes us think we could do it in this day and age? When a heart had been hardened, qualifications will not be able to melt it. Isn’t all the lives impacted a good enough qualification? That’s why Jesus said : John 9:41

I think this is a lovely post that Pastor Kong had brought up, that when bad things happens, it does not means God don’t love you.

Hi Evelyn, when I read your story, I felt so much for you. I understand that it must have so tough for you… Sometimes we may not have all the answers, but don’t let God go. Every tears we cried are precious in God’s eyes. We may not understand why things happened, but we can trust His heart. God is loves you more than you can ever imagine. Every tears shed in the closet is kept by Him… Take good care of yourself.

- Elihu wannabe.
Amy on December 2nd, 2009 5:14 pm

Micheal,

You wrote this: “I think it is already clear that it is a paper mill thing and no one else can prove otherwise.

Please – even Ex-Pastor Sun was once a founding Pastor and was removed after she was sent away on a cultural mandate. All these are pretty hard for CHC to defend. Even ex-members indicated she did some prayers over them in the past.

I guess the CHC defense is that if God appointed him to be a pastor, who says he needs any professional certs / degree etc etc.

And we cannot deny he is doing God’s work and moving many teens on the path to God.”

Of what use is “moving many teens on the path to God” when he cannot even be honest about his training/qualifications. Is he a good role model to these teens, and how does he by carrying a paper mill qualification present the true Jesus who I am very sure abhors untruths.
Choo Gang on December 2nd, 2009 5:20 pm

HI Elihu

You have made a good point. Credentials do not make a man of God that is true. But if that is the case, then why did the big kahuna want to get it since he is already ‘anointed’. If he wanted to pursue some credentials for respect and credibility, then why obtain a undergrduate and postgraduate degree from what seems to be a dodgy institution? Online, no-campus, virtual university at that!

Surely an anointed man of God would want to obtain his credentials from a properly accredited Seminary. Surely a man of God would want to be above reproach and make sure his credentials are above reproach as well.

I would like to say that “If Jesus could not convince the Pharisees after all the intellectual debates, what makes us think we could do it in this day and age”, actually works against you. Jesus was always able to give an explanation. So far, none of you have been able to explain the truth about the Seminary the big kahuna. All you have done is to hedge and evade with big congregation, world-wide acceptance, etc excuses.

It is so easy for you to prove the hokkienpeng’s point is wrong, but then you people just keep evading the point he made. The plot thickens. I would love to see you prove the kahuna took a proper undergrad and post-graduate biblical degree as well. The implications of a megachurch pastor not being biblically trained and all the more holding a dodgy doctorate is just too horrendous for me to contemplate.
Choo Gang on December 2nd, 2009 5:21 pm

Amy

Quoting you “Of what use is “moving many teens on the path to God” when he cannot even be honest about his training/qualifications. Is he a good role model to these teens, and how does he by carrying a paper mill qualification present the true Jesus who I am very sure abhors untruths.” Unquote

You have said it better than me and using less words as well :) Blessings
Elihu on December 2nd, 2009 5:55 pm

Hi Choo Gang,

Maybe you would like to email that college to find out more from them instead. (If you are truly interested) I think getting clarification from them would clear all doubts than to raise it in this forum. I would like to think that it is not because the CHC members are evading the point, just that they are more interested in the passage that Pastor Kong has put up. . So if you are truly interested, why not drop an email to them instead of asking reader on the blog? They are readers, not bible school authenticators. So they might not know how to answer you.

The reason why all these disagreement comes was that most of the reader can see the intent of this passage, to explain to those (going through sufferings) who do not understand why sufferings comes, so that they are comforted, while another group comes along to focus on the character of the blogger.

I think this all comes from michaellow discussion on what he felt on the passage. Maybe let’s focus on what you do not agree on the passage instead.

I think there are really some genuine reader, who really needs comfort like Evelyn, to find a hope through this blog. Let’s not steal that away from her. Focus on this blog, and if you really have comments on what was shared on the blog, we could discuss about it. Who knows, we could gain greater insights through that and benefit all the rest?

Like what :) shared right? “Blessed are the peacemaker — they are sons of God” .

— Elihu wannabe
Patrick on December 2nd, 2009 6:06 pm

if you chaps want the real deal –

get the book by Harold Kushner –

please give him the credit -

it is not written by Pastor Kong.
Twitted by missdeety on December 2nd, 2009 6:37 pm

[...] This post was Twitted by missdeety [...]
Amy on December 2nd, 2009 10:57 pm

Patrick,

You wrote: “if you chaps want the real deal –

get the book by Harold Kushner –

please give him the credit -

it is not written by Pastor Kong.”

I am just curious – I do not have the book. But in what way are the words written in this blog not the real deal? Were some of the passages lifted from the book wholesale?
Choo Gang on December 2nd, 2009 11:25 pm

Dear Elihu

You are really evading the issue old chap! Truth is the important issue here. Hiding behind a façade of ministry just won’t work. Is NCITS a bona-fide theological seminary that trains people for the church? Without a campus, how can students avail themselves to quality resources for reading and learning? Without a faculty, how can students pick the minds of learned scholars to learn from and to sharpen their own minds? These are things I benefited from when I went to an overseas university, one that had a great library, a real campus and real people walking around too! LOL! You have been to college, haven’t you?

Telling me to write to the college to find out is really so lame. You think the college will tell me what subjects your big kahuna studied for his MDiv? Do you think the college (if it really exists) will give out to any stranger who requests the big kahuna’s thesis for which he earned his DTh? You are so lame! Come on, why not take this opportunity to shut my hokkien buddy up? The big kahuna has posted so many things on line. Why does he not dare to post his thesis online then to shut everyone up? He can share his money but he cannot share his thesis. LOL The plot keeps thickening.

Michaellow made two interesting points. One was that the big kahuna was not really such a great bible interpreter with his quoting verses out of their context. I did English Lit so I know something about context and genres. He looks like he has a valid point. So far, none of your hundreds of Executive Members seem to have been able to engage his point and say that your big kahuna had used the verse correctly in-context. The second point is that his undergrad and postgrad degree does not seem like it comes from a reputable college being on-line, virtual and no-campus. If the second point is true, it validates the first point as well meaning your big kahuna may not really know how to handle Bible interpretation.
TKH on December 3rd, 2009 12:00 am

■Choo Gang on December 1st, 2009 10:14 pm

Thanks for making michaellow’s comments more readible, I appreciate the efforts.

Based on your translation, the quote is “This verse (42:5) has nothing to do with God’s wanting to break Job since Job (only) heard about God but has not yet seen God. The thesis based on this verse is just a presumption of the megachurch #1. Look at how 42:1 begins, “then Job replied to the Lord…” How can the megachurch #1 use this verse to support the point that God wanted to break Job because Job was not broken unto the Lord.”

Firstly, one must acknowledge that the book of Job is not an “easy” book to do exergesis, and as such, I don’t think there is only one way to interpret this book.

Secondly, the quote mentioned that Ps Kong’s quote out of context based on Job 42:1-5. I personally hold a different view, as the conclusion of Ps Kong is valid if you read the whole context of the book of Job. If you read the whole book, it is not difficult to note some “self-righteous tone” of Job concerning his sufferings, and as such, I don’t think you can say Ps Kong is quoting out of context.

Also your quote “The main thesis of Job is actually seen in 1:11. Satan tells God, “but stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.” Satan is saying that Job is just another believer in the prosperity gospel. He only believes in God because he is prosperous. If God were to remove Job’s prosperity, it will surely lead to Job cursing God. However, we can see that although Job lost everything, he still did not sin (1:22, 2:10).”

I personally do not think the main thesis of Job is in 1:11. If Job is blameless, there is no need for him to repent before God in 42:6. Apparently, one can conclude that God is dealing with some issues in Job’s life, which he eventually submitted and yield to God. To say that the main thesis of Job is 1:11, I think you seem to understand wrongly the context of the WHOLE book of Job. As far as I am concerned, Satan played a minor role, and the issue goes beyond just prosperity and health. Hope you can see that …

Your quote “So where is the support for the point made by the megachurch #1 that Job’s suffering is because ‘HE WAS NOT BROKEN UNTO THE LORD’. Am I not right to say this point is just a presumption?”

If you read the whole book of Job and understand in depth, I don’t think you can conclude that Ps Kong is presumptous. Probably he can’t quote every supporting verses as the intent of this blog is not a Bible Study session ….

God bless …

TKH
michaellow on December 3rd, 2009 12:35 am

Ehhh Choo Gang ahhh

Wahhhh, you are my champion. Kumsiah, kumsiah. You got edit my hokkien out but you got see also no one know how to engage the points I got make. Is sad to see so many lost sheep is sure going astray one.

I read your posts and really got some philos feelings for you. I oso got thank God for sharp-eyed Christians like you ahh! The cool and hip angmohpai got try and siam but you got know how to tackle the siam by the devotees.
michaellow on December 3rd, 2009 12:48 am

Ehhhhh Pharisee TKH ahhh. You got say “If you read the whole book, it is not difficult to note some “self-righteous tone” of Job concerning his sufferings, and as such, I don’t think you can say Ps Kong is quoting out of context.”

Hokkienpeng ask you, “you can show me which passage got self-righteous tone of Job”?

Wahhhh now the scholar Pharisee come out again ahhhh? Obviously, you donch understand the point I got make and just got bring your rojak in again. In Hermeneutics, always look at immediate passage for context first. Please lahhhh Pharisee. Your lautar got say “Job was successful, spiritual and blameless, but HE WAS NOT BROKEN UNTO THE LORD. He felt he had ‘arrived’ (materially, parentally, socially, spiritually), but he was terribly deceived—a victim of his own illusion. God wanted to change that in him. IN HIS SOVEREIGN WISDOM, THE ONLY WAY TO BREAK JOB WAS TO TAKE HIM THROUGH A PERIOD OF ABJECT SUFFERING.” When he got say this, your lautar never got give any supporting passage or context, tio boh? Is just own presumption, oni verse he got use is 42:5. What is the context that says God want to break him? Is own conclusion right? Anywhere in Job got passages got say that? Oso God want to make him suffer because he was not broken? Is own presumption not based on any exegesis of Job passage!

You again shoot wrong target when you got say “I personally do not think the main thesis of Job is in 1:11. If Job is blameless, there is no need for him to repent before God in 42:6.” Ehhhh Pharisee, I can see you got some linguistic ability but got no literary ability! You must ask yourself also what is Job repenting of? Check context first can? As usual, you never got pay any attention to others. I got say the context of 42:5 is actually Job 42:1-6. I oso got say Job 42:1-6 is Job’s response to God’s queries (Job 38-39, 40-41) to Job regarding his omnipotence and sovereignty. Job’s only response is to be reduced to humble submission to God’s sovereignty. This is the response we can see in 42:1-6. You got see how the passage begins with “then”? In what way does this repentance prove that before JOB WAS NOT BROKEN UNTO THE LORD?

You say “Apparently, one can conclude that God is dealing with some issues in Job’s life” How to conclude when you just say whole book of Job is context. You quote passage clearly can? To support your contention can? Ehhehehehehhe, why you not say whole Bible is context ahhhh??? Obviously you donch understand very much about interpretation. Always look at immediate context.

You got say “To say that the main thesis of Job is 1:11, I think you seem to understand wrongly the context of the WHOLE book of Job. As far as I am concerned, Satan played a minor role, and the issue goes beyond just prosperity and health. Hope you can see that …”

Really ahhhhh? Can show me the passage you got get this conclusion? Everytime say use whole book of Job as excuse but never show supporting passage. Das why I got say, this one is called cart-before-horse theology. Make conclusion first then look for bible verses to make linguistic support

I got read the whole book of Job! Maybe you read different book of Job? You got say “I don’t think you can conclude that Ps Kong is presumptous. Probably he can’t quote every supporting verses as the intent of this blog is not a Bible Study session ….”
Ehehehehehehehe…This is good excuse when arrow got miss the mark. For every preacher, conclusion must always based on Bible text. So far your lautar and you also make a lot of presumption but never got quote passage to prove point you got make. Oni excuse is to say context is whole book of Job. Better say context is whole Bible! Or better say, God reveal special message. Ehehehehehhe. That’s why you always say “apparent one can conclude” but got no supporting exegeted conclusion. You got say “I understand wrongly” but you never show how you are right, only say “as far as I am concerned”

Pharisee TKH ahhhh mebbe you try bring Hebrew sword since I donch know Hebrew ahhh?
michaellow on December 3rd, 2009 1:00 am

OK lahh Pharisee TKH, I want now go to sleep. I got plenty to write and hope to teach you. Sometime I got feel that you want to learn but you are too proud of defending your lautar. So because of that, you got become unteachable.

Sometime I feel sorry for you but sometimes I oso want spank you. Oways remember ahhh, what donch kill you sure got make you stronger. But please ahhh, this one is talking figuratively ahhhh. is figure of speech, donch take literally. You donch make response to say I want kill you like you got say last time I want flog this blog when I got say ‘flogging a dead horse’
Stanley on December 3rd, 2009 5:05 am

I do agreed with couple of pts raised by ■michaellow.
I orso hokkien lang lah. I orso wrote belly long blog liao. Now short short one can?
Pastor oready admitted before that he is not perfect. So, when a preacher wants to preach a message in accordance to his or her conceived ideas and doctrines, the danger is that when logically thinking gets involved, Bible truth may get distorted. So, when logic get involved, our Holy Spirit is not being used to translate and manifest the Bible passage correctly. We all knew that our spirit maybe strong but when we used logic too much, the flesh being weak tends to be manipulated by the whatever you know who lah and the outcome of the message would probably not Holy Spirit inspired (generally speaking, not refering to this blog) and if you have Gift of discernment and wisdom, you’ll the real after effect of a message.
That’s why I said we must look at BIGGER PICTURE. Job happened to be one of my favourite book.
1. GOD allow Satan to touch Job (Skin for skin), Satan vengence for God’s purpose of having Job intercede 3 friends to receive forgiveness from God. (this main purpose was not presented here).
2. Job questioned God many things, especially why he had to suffered and others wisdom of God.
3. Three of his friends say wrong things about Job, saying that Job was punished because he had sinned.
4. One arrogant young man, had the advantage of hearing everything, took advantage of it and criticised everyone. Although he had said some truth about God teaching Job about his character. (this part wasn’t presented) This young man represents present day Pharisees, proud, arrogant and disrespectful to elders. Not forgiven in the end.

This part was missed! The TRUTH! Only after Job had interceded for his three friends, then God gave Job the double portion of blessings.

Job 42:8 “My servant Job shall pray for you. For I will accept him, lest I deal with you according to your folly; because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has.”
Job 42:10 “Ad the LORD restored Job’s losses when he prayed for his friends. Indeed the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.”

Tio Bor? Bible kong “When he (Job) prayed for his friends.” I don’t know why this IMPORTANT PART IS NOT BEING PREACHED. If Job had not interceded for his 3 friends as instructed by God, do you think he can received his double blessing?
Frank Famadas on December 3rd, 2009 8:14 am

I am grateful to the Lord for this man’s ministry. City Harvest has a great leader in their midst – may he continue to excel and encourage others as he is so wisely doing.
Wendy Ong on December 3rd, 2009 10:04 am

Thank you pastor for your sharing and daily blog. Personally, I am encouraged and edified by the spirtiual food. You are very much appreciated for giving your time and depositing an eternal measure of His love into many needy hearts. I would like to commend you for the excellent work that you’ve done. Thank you for making a difference in the many lives you touch.

Kudos!
Patrick on December 3rd, 2009 11:59 am

Seriously, I do not think he lifted up the articles wholesale from the book. I have no evidence of that.

But this is such a popular book that many of the ideas are found in the book.

I was edified cos it talks about how his son was diagnosed of the illness at age 3, and knew he would die as a teen, and how the book must be written.

Some ideas will not be accepted by main-stream Christian –

eg that God may not be in complete control. That some forces of the earth (earthquakes) happens and innocent lives are taken, and how God is angry it happened, and is at our side and He grieves with us.

I truly recommend the book. Harold S Kushner.
Charlie on December 3rd, 2009 4:18 pm

I think we should not worry too much about paper mills.

Even Ven Ming Yi had a master degree from a paper mill. Thousands still stand by him.

Pastor is still young. He can have a sabbatical and sharpen his saw.

But with a congregation of 27,000, I think he would not like to be proven wrong in his personal insights on Christ over the last 20+ years by arguing his views in a seminary / school.

Thus the controversy over his views on Unwholesome shallowness (wife) plastic surgery (wife) and masterbation (distance from wife).

I guess that is why CHC is so ‘controversial’ all these years.

And to think CHC has a school based on a pastor with a paper mill.

Still the Holy spirit must have moved thousands, but let us hope change from within and they find a need to have a proper anchor.

God bless.
Patrick on December 3rd, 2009 4:32 pm

Micheallow – thanks again,

If we were to rely on Pastor for his edification – I think we will all get it wrong that

IN HIS SOVEREIGN WISDOM, THE ONLY WAY TO BREAK JOB WAS TO TAKE HIM THROUGH A PERIOD OF ABJECT SUFFERING.

I thought God was pleased with Job.

To think that our loving Father would purposefully ‘break us’ to make us better does not sound very right. – especially to a grieving widow / widower.
Amy on December 3rd, 2009 5:57 pm

Choo Gang said this:
“Truth is the important issue here. Hiding behind a façade of ministry just won’t work. Is NCITS a bona-fide theological seminary that trains people for the church? Without a campus, how can students avail themselves to quality resources for reading and learning? Without a faculty, how can students pick the minds of learned scholars to learn from and to sharpen their own minds?”

Charlie said this:
“And to think CHC has a school based on a pastor with a paper mill.”

How do the students in CHC bible school pick the minds of learned scholars to learn from and to sharpen their own minds? Michaellow had pointed out the rest of the lecturers in the school have not even got reasonably high qualifications in theology. training.
Amy on December 3rd, 2009 6:06 pm

Patrick said this:

“Micheallow – thanks again,

If we were to rely on Pastor for his edification – I think we will all get it wrong that

IN HIS SOVEREIGN WISDOM, THE ONLY WAY TO BREAK JOB WAS TO TAKE HIM THROUGH A PERIOD OF ABJECT SUFFERING.

I thought God was pleased with Job.

To think that our loving Father would purposefully ‘break us’ to make us better does not sound very right. – especially to a grieving widow / widower.”

But maybe Kong has special revelation from God? Actually, on a more serious note, Kong is creative and he would make a very good author/script writer. But his creativity in handling the Word of God is just not acceptable.
michaellow on December 3rd, 2009 10:15 pm

Ehhehehehehe. You all got see the time frame the lautar got get degree or not? 1991-1993 MDiv, 1993-1995 Doctor of Theology. Hehehehehe, this one is really fast-track tio-boh? I got know from my pastor all, MDiv in Singapore College is three years minimum. Some more Doctor of Thology also the lautar can do in 2 years ahhhh? Actually, no creditable university will want to let students do doctorate in two years, si erm si? Impossible to get all reading and research done in two years, that’s why. Their basis is also for student to learn first, degree is secondary.

Anyone can show me any real, not-internet theological college got give doctorate in theology in two years? Hehehehehehe, I say 100% donch have. The lautar the first one get fast-tracked so fast. Other people got take at least 7 years to get MDiv and Doctor of Theology but lautar can get both degrees in 4 years. And no need to attend campus also. I very sure 1991-1995, he did not go overseas to take degrees tio boh?

I got notice the NCITS say they can customize degrees depending on student. I got wonder what is basis of customizing – gifting? Gifts?

You see I also got think like Choo Gang always hope for best in God’s Kingdom. I hope they can prove wrong this my idea about NCITS. At least then I got affirmation maybe 27,000 not being led astray.
michaellow on December 3rd, 2009 10:49 pm

Hi Amy

You are right! Imagine if got one widow suddenly lose husband then money get cheated by husband’s partners. Then this kind of shallow theology teach her, “Eileen, you are successful, spiritual and blameless, but you are not broken unto the Lord. You feel you have arrived (materially, parentally, socially, spiritually), but you are terribly deceived—a victim of your own illusion. God wants to change that in you. In His sovereign wisdom, the only way to break you Eileen is to take you through of abject suffering.”

In fact, this lautar argument got sound very much like the friends of Job. Eliphaz got accuse Job of not being innocent in 4:7-9, “Consider now: Who, being innocent, has ever perished? Where were the upright ever destroyed? As I have observed, those who plow evil and those who sow trouble reap it. At the breath of God they are destroyed; at the blast of his anger they perish.” Imagine you got tell the widow, if you are upright, you not have lost so much. You must search yourself, see if you got reach total abandonment towards God (this one I got paraphrase the lautar’s sentence on ‘total abandonment’)

Bildad even worse, anyhow say Job children got killed because they had sinned (8:4-6). Imagine you go tell the widow, Eileen you have arrive but maybe your husband died and you lost everything because your husband has sinned, he “was not yet broken unto the Lord.”

If you got tell the widow talk like that ahhh, I very sure she stop going church.
michaellow on December 3rd, 2009 11:01 pm

BTW ahhh, you all got hear about the Wellness Village Spa got closed down wu boh? Got many netizens say they not ethical even in October, they still got road show, got try get people sign up for spa packages, money upfront first OK? I got check that one director of wellness village is Lia Meyrina. I got read from netizens she also from CHC! This one is true or not? I got try and google her facebook, Friendster but all cancelled. Now I heard she also chow lor, cannot be found. Prolly go back own country, now laughing with money in pocket because so many Singaporean, in recession, willing to pay for hot-air spa package. Ehhehehehe, I so blessed because wife not so stupid. They got ask her to sign up but she just say OK lahh, I donch need the discount so I pay when I use OK?

If she really CHC, I got wonder if CHC can help use her tithes vigorish to help offset the customers loss. This one is good way to witness God’s love tio boh? Can say to customer legally I no need to give you money back but because I love God, this money is God’s grace to you.
michaellow on December 3rd, 2009 11:07 pm

wahhh Choo Gang ahh! You England words so so powderful ahhh! facade, bona-fide, pick the minds, sharpen the minds, some more. You for sure be better that 10 CHC England teachers. You are tok kong to the max, friend
Joey Tubal on December 4th, 2009 12:30 am

Thanks a lot pastor for your encourage message from God! God bless you more!
rara-roma on December 4th, 2009 12:36 am

michaellow & Co.

you all always talk about 27,000 members dio borh?

have you ever wondered where this 27,000 come from, or even if they existed?

a simple primary school boy can do the math by adding the seating capacity of the various venue sizes for every individual service each week. :)

so perhaps it’s a blessing that the ushers are taking away more chairs every other week.
TKH on December 4th, 2009 1:24 am

Dear michaellow,

God bless you …

TKH
MyNamezIsAhHuatTar on December 4th, 2009 4:08 am

TO MICHAEL d LOW,

Hua lau-eh, tis iz der firz timez I zee KUI kena splush by hori watter. Tiam tiam pengz Tiam Tiam Pengz in yAngers yeah!

U surez Yu understangz der bible hor notz? Kena stangs … by Yor
typez of Hok-glish. Boh-Tak-Chek peoplez alzo kengnot under-stangs yu.

Hok-Kiens arso notz,,, Ang-Moes arso notz… keng-notz lite ploper yang-glish butz wanna kongdempz everly wans.

Summoz zays yu zo smuts in bible .. yu klistien huh? U donz zounds zo leh. Maebis you goze Hindi-Tudes ofz Meng-Tal Healtz to tleat youz yAnger ploblemz b4 yuz play-play wiz bible nerzeries.

Hargue hargue hargue .. zo ploud lez… I thinkz u kena pozzezz by KUI orladyz. Boey tah hanz. Thiau tang.

Goat-Blitz Yue.
Joy on December 4th, 2009 11:05 am

Thanks Pastor, for your incredible message.

But I have to agree with Amy and Michaellow – the parts on sinning of the kids and God hurting you to make you better sounds very wrong to me, and not edifying at all.

Re-reading Job, you sound like one of the 3 detractors.

Sometimes God is not to be blamed.

God bless you Amy and Michaellow.
Joy on December 4th, 2009 11:49 am

Anyway, Pastor, I read about your newest blog on fasting.

I guess fasting also affect the quality of your blog as shown in the weaknesses pointed out by friends from the other churches.

Yes, let us move on.
To Amy, Michaellow & Joy on December 4th, 2009 12:49 pm

Who are you to judge another man’s servant?

This is not a rhetorical question.
- on December 4th, 2009 5:09 pm

Who is Pastor Kong to call other Pastors “Cheap Grace Preachers?”

Who is Pastor to cast Sun this way “The unchurched throughout Asia loves Sun and views her as an exemplary model to the youths of society”

Was a vote taken?

This is not a rhetorical question.
To - on December 4th, 2009 5:37 pm

You have not answered my question.

Interestingly, under provocation, you have revealed your true motivation.

So, it seems that its about revenge for you isn’t it.

Tsk.
michaellow on December 4th, 2009 9:54 pm

Aiyahhhhh To Amy, Michaellow & Joy. You got say we judge? Ehhhhh, I oni scrutinize the man’s exposition, interpretation and theological education lahhh. That is judging ahhhh? Why? Because he God’s anointed si boh?

If his exposition is wrong, we cannot point out si boh?! At least come discuss, scrutinize my arguments, show me I got wrong conclusion. That one so hard mehhh? One fast-track Doctor of Theology, degree get online o’course, one-on-one with a Hokkienpeng. That one is hard mehhh? if I am wrong. I very teachable one. Irascible but teachable, my pastor always got say hehehehehe. But so far I got see oni the cannon fodder not-Executive Members got come forth to defend the lion chief.

You got think pastors cannot lie, cannot fall short si boh? You got read story of Michael Gugliemucci pastor of Planetshakers ministry. He oso inspirational pastor but lied that he got cancer for last two years. In the end, he confessed cancer is fake,sos confess he adddicted to pornography for 16 years. Now under investigation to see what got happen to money raised for his cancer.

In the end, his own friend got write ‘Could it be that in aid of being “relevant”, our churches have become a mirror of the larger culture’s infatutation with power, prestige, position, possessions and prominence, instead of being “colonies of heaven” by embodying a different way? I got see a goot reflection of this quotation in your lautar, wife personality cult.

Is not difficult to preve me wrong tio boh. Like choogang got ask, can post so many things online but cannot post thesis o-line mehhh? This thesis wisdom why dare not share with others ahhh?

Ehheheheheheh, you got see I donch give you rhetorical answer or use ad hominem. You engage what I got say can. be gentleman, do that can and donch stoop to ad hominem? Hehehehehe
michaellow on December 4th, 2009 10:15 pm

Hello MyNamezIsAhHuatTar

Thank you for your ad hominem post. I really got appreciate it because it got help me to separate goats and sheep

BTW, you got end with salutation “Goat blitz you” Why you pray to goat and not God ahhh? Which goat you pray and got ask to blitz me ahhh? Baphoment si erm si? You better repent ahhh! One day Baphoment sure end in lake of fire. Hopefully you donch for praying to goat to blitz me
michaellow on December 4th, 2009 10:21 pm

BTW, I want ask. The photos got show here in this blog about suffering is press photos taken from Internet tioboh? Got ask permission or not? This one is copyright matter tio boh? I got remember reading a blog that got say, as long as the material donch belong to you, is best to say so. Even sermon points and illustration donch belong to you, you must credit to pastor or source you get sermon point and illustration from.
backstageworker on December 4th, 2009 10:42 pm

Hey! ler si siam me lang? ==>■michaellow, run choo kon. Bo tao bo sway, Kin Na sai! Pee lah ler….
What I can say is that this blog is preaching about a Bible passage in Job. It doesn’t matter where and which is right or wrong. Anyone can all comment about it. But what see here is personal attack on the writer. Very immature childish action. The bible said.
Ephesians 6:12 ” For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
Why personal attack? If you really understand this bible message, you would not had done it!
IMMATURE CHRISTIAN
Tends to attack people personally, not forgiving, vicious and unconstructive critism.
MATURED CHRISTIAN
Understand Ephesians 6:12
Love the person, atttack principalities, against the powers by prayer. Constructive critism to help and love other people. So what if you are always right? But lost your Soul??????

What nonsense, undeserved paper qualifications you’re talking about? I can be childish and said that you’re jeolous of other peoples’ fast track achievement, Si bor? KIN NA SAI ==>■michaellow and supporter. hahahaha hehehe.
To michaellow on December 4th, 2009 11:42 pm

You have presented amazing puerile arguments sadly garbed in poor linguistic selections.

While giving you credit for verbosity, your circumlocutions have only proven your evil intent and the lack of substance in your writing, both in content and in style.

May I remind you that you have yet answered my question.

Who are you to judge another man’s servant?

This is not a rhetorical question.
JoJo on December 5th, 2009 1:06 am

indeed alot of critics and childish comments made here.

i made the same mistake of judging my pastor(not pastor kong) many years ago… although very much i did not like the way he did certain thing, i shouldnt have openly criticize him. I was childish enough back then to challenge God to prove to me that i was right and pastor was wrong. God is merciful and gracious to speak to me through a visiting pastor who didnt know me and didnt know anything about me. There on the pulpit, she stood there and suddenly faced to my direction and said a sentence that was totally unrelated to her message “You do not touch God’s annointed even if you think he is wrong”

I cant help it but remember about King David. Before he was made king, King Saul was after his life. If u guys read the word carefully, u know that David could easily kill King Saul but he didnt, instead he cut away one piece of King Saul’s garment . why? read 1sam24:6

last but not least… let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
sincerely pray that holy spirit will convict your hearts of your judgment towards God’s anointed one and your idle talks against him.
MyNamezIsAhHuatTar on December 5th, 2009 2:17 am

Simple Maths eg.
Primary:
1 = 1981, 2=1982; 3=1983; 4=1984; 5=1985; 6=1986
Total years in Primary school = 6 years.

CHC “lautar”
1993=Year 1, 1994=Year 2, 1995=Year 3 =>(Total 3 years)

Always knew that goats cannot count, stupid – AUTAR. Cannot even write proper English.
Blitz goat go to “Hindi-Tude of Mantle Health”.
Goats end up in the satay BBQ pit.

“Sheeps” go to heaven.
backstageworker on December 5th, 2009 4:42 am

==> JOY! U kana Sai, Kin nah Pee!
Your comment showed how hypocritic you are!

“Thanks Pastor, for your incredible message.

But I have to agree with Amy and Michaellow – the parts on sinning of the kids and God hurting you to make you better sounds very wrong to me, and not edifying at all.”

I just hate this kind of hypocrite (but I still love you, hope to convict you).

Hypocrite are always like tat one. Give praise to people but behind the mind, they already had the Evil intend of whacking the person.
In the first place, no need to praise the person lah. Just whack with all your viciousness and evilness, don’t need to give thanks and praise. Challenge you understand the Word of God :-
“but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.” Matt 13:25
Not sure if you have the mentality to understand this part of the parable. Ai yah, ching chai lah, share with you as bonus lah.
The symbolic meaning is that even if your mind (soul) belongs to Kingdom of God, the Satan will still plant evil thoughts in you (the tares) and if you don’t guard your thoughts, not in prayer and surrender to the Wisdom of our Holy Spirit, although you may speak goodness but the intend of the message is being eaten up by complete evilness (the tares). As spoken in the next verse:-
“But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.” Matt 13:26 Understand or not? Simple childish minded?
Wah lau ehhh ! Like that also can? So childish, evil and idiotic saying. ====>Joy “I guess fasting also affect the quality of your blog as shown in the weaknesses pointed out by friends from the other churches.” Have you even fasted before for even 3 days?
On second thought ===>Joy! I think your mind is fully crowded with tares. God bless you and hope you’ll be convicted of what you had done.

Hmmm…. wonder how would Joy feel if her friend praised her and then whack her viciously with all the bad bad bad… haha hahaha hehehehe
backstageworker on December 5th, 2009 5:19 am

====> KIN NAH PEE , ■michaellow

==>■JoJo, Good testimony. I read a book, apology forgot the title, also said the same thing. God bless you. ”

===>AMY, from the bottom of my heart. Yes, you have said with certain correctness but DON’T JUDGE! God allows thing to happen in a way that our intelligent can’t rationalised. As someone had spoken before “God allowed things happen, as long as benefits outweights consequences.” Who are we to question God’s Wisdom for things that allow to happen? ehh, you trying to say about widows…. but if they have Wisdom of God. In spirit realm, they would had understand. Was not Mary, Jesus’ mother weeping for his death? But later understood that the prophency must be fulfilled?

Wah lua ehhh! like tat also can? So chidish Ka Nah Sai lah ler! You using another person’s failure to judge another person.
Berry berry chidish hor! si erm si?
==>michaellow said:
“You got read story of Michael Gugliemucci pastor of Planetshakers ministry. He oso inspirational pastor but lied that he got cancer for last two years.”
Wah Lau ehhh! like that also can huh? Use another person’s example to give people impression that the writer also like that one. Ka na Sai, Kin Nah Pee! michaellow
==>michaellow said:
“I got check that one director of wellness village is Lia Meyrina. I got read from netizens she also from CHC!”
Wah Lau ehhh! like that also can huh? Are you trying to imply by using one member of CHC as example to imply that ALL CHC are like that one? Ka na Sai, Kin Nah Pee! michaellow

Waste my precious time writing about Kin Nah Pee, michaellow… hehehehahaha. si erm si?
backstageworker on December 5th, 2009 5:39 am

===>JoJo, now remembered, “Under Cover” by by John Bevere

Romans 13:1-2: “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore, whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves”

Inside this book, John Bevere also shared how he had once doubts his Pastor but our Holy Spirit teaches him to obey the Authority and he was blessed subsquently.
to michaellow on December 5th, 2009 10:30 am

to michaellow,

yes its true that even pastors/preachers may lie and make mistakes… but please do not make false accusations at our own Pastor’s blog!

This post is to encourage those going through tough times please!
Often when we go through things isn’t the first question we ask ‘why?’ Pastor is trying to help those going through difficulties to find the ‘why’ in that situation and if there’s no ‘why’… to teach us who surround those people in tough times to show them love! your example of the widow is totally false!

You then cite one person without proof and say the church should take responsibility? to whom? for whom? you are totally out of point. this is an article about not judging about showing love and you come in with a judgemental attitude. please think twice before you comment needlessly and ruthlessly. lets have a heart to love the people that are hurting like Pastor does and not shoot him down for doing it.
thoughts on December 5th, 2009 10:57 am

Pastor, what a fab post! You rock! :) :)
you guys that are accusing Sun. Don’t be ridiculous can! She’s great and we are proud of her. She doesn’t do those awful things you guys are saying. I
Damien Loh on December 6th, 2009 4:20 pm

wow… i like to see michaellow respond to that!

To michaellow on December 4th, 2009 11:42 pm

You have presented amazing puerile arguments sadly garbed in poor linguistic selections.

While giving you credit for verbosity, your circumlocutions have only proven your evil intent and the lack of substance in your writing, both in content and in style.

May I remind you that you have yet answered my question.

Who are you to judge another man’s servant?

This is not a rhetorical question.
Hongkies on December 6th, 2009 6:42 pm

This is incredible!
Mario Ranti on December 6th, 2009 9:26 pm

My wife and I have been attending CHC for at least 6 years (she longer than I); we met in church, got married early this year, and was blessed with a pregnancy not long after. We were overjoyed and felt that God really has blessed us as we have been faithful serving Him.

Then we found out on the 16th week of pregnancy, during a Friday checkup, that the foetus’ heart had stopped. We lost our baby. We had to go through a procedure to expel the dead foetus early the following week.

We were heartbroken; we couldn’t bear telling anyone, not even our parents, as it was just too painful. We didn’t feel like going to church because we didn’t want to meet anyone. But we logged on to the webcast to follow the service that weekend.

Pastor Kong preached a message that eventually became the blog post titled “When Bad Things Happen To Good People”. We started weeping as he went through his sermon, and we felt the tangible presence and love of God overflowed into the room. Through Pastor’s ministering at the end of the sermon, we were able to let our baby go to be with Jesus.

I wrote to Pastor Kong about our situation and thanked him for ministering to us through his message. The following Monday, my wife went through the procedure successfully and we were able to return home the very same day.

To my surprise, two days later we received a bouquet of flowers with a note from Pastor Kong and Sun, saying that they are praying for us. My wife and I were very touched by this simple yet meaningful act; our Pastor really cared for us.

We knew Sun went through two miscarriages before she had Dayan. They knew exactly how we were feeling, so we were greatly encouraged as our spiritual parents were keeping us in prayer.

We are both doing very well now and are back to actively serving in the church again. Thanks be to God for using Pastor Kong to minister to us with a timely message and help us in the healing process.

To all those who have criticized, questioned, accused, and called out Pastor Kong in their comments (michaellow, Amy, Patrick, -, apple, ihopeiamwrong, etc), I have this to say:

No matter what kind of things you say about him, regardless of how well-meaning you may be, you will NEVER bring into question the kind of heart Pastor Kong possess. He has a heart for the people God has placed under him, and he’s doing everything he can to take care of, minister to, and build up every single one of them in their Christian walk of faith.

Pastor, if you happen to read this comment, I just want to thank you again for everything you and Sun have done for us. We will continue to serve the Lord together with you. May God continue to bless you, Sun, and Dayan abundantly.

Love,

Mario
ManInBlack on December 7th, 2009 9:27 am

FOR Damien Loh on December 6th, 2009 4:20 pm

You are a free ranging CHICKEN, shit stirer
bound for the abatoir!
michaellow on December 7th, 2009 6:29 pm

Ehhhhh Mynameisahfartar ahhh!

Ehhh, you follow calendar year for tertiary education si boh? Looks like you oni still in secondary school ahhh? 1989-1991 for MDiv is 3 years because from 1 Jan – 31 Dec each year si erm si? But then you got see context? Is US college tio boh? US College Academic Year got start in January mehhh First time I got hear US College Academic Year got start in January hehehehe.

So maybe is by your own words, your lautar is known. So maybe is true, New Covenant ITS is a virtual, no-campus, no faculty college. Just pay fees enough can start cos no academic year, start anytime, graduate anytime. Wahhhh, some more I got see, even got before graduation (if got graduation??), your lautar already ordained. So no need theological degree oso can ordain tio boh? For some is cheap grace, for some is cheap ordination ahhh, ahfartar, tio boh?
michaellow on December 7th, 2009 6:32 pm

Ehhhhhhh backstageworkwer ahhhh

You got say, “What nonsense, undeserved paper qualifications you’re talking about? I can be childish and said that you’re jealous of other peoples’ fast track achievement, Si bor? KIN NA SAI”

HKPemg say : Ehehehehehehe, This answer is really got so amazing. So far, always I get is answer that is no-answer? I oni can say oni internet theological college can fast-track lahhh! Real got-campus, got-faculty, got-curriculum can allow you to fast-track ahhh! You can show me evidence?

hehehehehehe. Is not difficult to oso prove got above-board MDIv tio boh?. Can just show subjects studied, can share wisdom of research papers online tio boh? Can post dissertation online tio boh? You all got so many defenses but is all ad hominem, fudge issues argument. Let your yes be yes can? Pure gold no need fear fire tio boh?

You got say “Wah Lau ehhh! like that also can huh? Use another person’s example to give people impression that the writer also like that one. Ka na Sai, Kin Nah Pee! Michaellow”

HKPeng say : I just got give you example to reflect on, tio boh? Maybe you got too young to remember got plenty scandals in church one, even in Singapore. Happen is because man is idolized, not God. This Michael Gugliemucci oso got minister, got inspire people when he lead congregation. But ministry is done on foundation of deceit for two years. I got oni ask question, “You got think pastors cannot lie, cannot fall short si boh?” Why you got so sensitive one ahhh? If really pure gold, got fear fire? Like you got see here, you 27,000 come against one hokkienpeng with loose words and sneers and ad hominems, but hokkienpeng come against you in the name of the Lord Almighty, armed oni with the Word of God. Is better you take heed now, then later with gnashing of teeth. Hehehehehe

BTW, I think you got very short of understanding? I oni got state fact ahout Lia Meyrina. You people always got imply plenty things hor, no wonder you always got say people oso imply plenty things. I notice you not deny she from CHC? Now she chow lor, why you people never got fast and pray so she come back and pay back those money she got owe her customers ahh? This one is good Christian witness ahhhh?
michaellow on December 7th, 2009 6:49 pm

Errrr, to michaellow ahhhh, you got say “You then cite one person without proof and say the church should take responsibility?” You can clarify what you got mean in this sentence. I got refer to who? I got say “church must take responsibility?” Really ahhhhh! You help this old brain can? Hehehehehe, many thanks.
To michaellow on December 7th, 2009 6:49 pm

To michaellow on December 4th, 2009 11:42 pm

You have presented amazing puerile arguments sadly garbed in poor linguistic selections.

While giving you credit for verbosity, your circumlocutions have only proven your evil intent and the lack of substance in your writing, both in content and in style.

May I remind you that you have yet answered my question.

Who are you to judge another man’s servant?

This is not a rhetorical question.
To michaellow on December 7th, 2009 6:52 pm

# To michaellow on December 4th, 2009 11:50 pm

Interesting thoughts you have.

Why don’t we continue the discussion at YOUR blog.

At least have the guts to let us know who you are (and to stand by your bravado)

Your supporters (if they are not imaginary and you in impersonation) could also better rally around you.

For all your criticisms of him, Pastor Kong is at least brave enough to stand by his opinions.

The big question is, ARE YOU?

Or would you prefer to shrink back, hide behind a pseudonym, and throw stone from the dark.

Your actions, if I may, put you spectacularly into the class of what we call, cowards.

Step out into the light and lets spar as gentlemen.

Or perhaps that is too much I can ask of you.
michaellow on December 7th, 2009 7:00 pm

Errrr, to michaellow ahhhh, Thank you bery much for your ad hominem letter!

You oso got say “You have presented amazing puerile arguments sadly garbed in poor linguistic selections.” Really ahhhh?? What “amazing puerile arguments: you toking about? Can show me donch just use ad hominem ok? Can show in what way they got puerile substance.

You got say I use ‘poor linguistic selections”? Ehhehehehehehe, what to do, hokkienpeng is hokkienpeng. But you got sound like Eliphaz. He oso cannot refute Job’s arguments (Job 15), so he attack Job’s words.

You oso got say “While giving you credit for verbosity, your circumlocutions have only proven your evil intent and the lack of substance in your writing, both in content and in style.”

Hokkien peng can say This one is typical ad hominem point? Why so many of your devotees always got like to use ad hominem, instead of engaging the points I got make. It sure got show lack of quality of intellect here. Hehehehe, lack of quality of intellect but abundance of quantity of hot air, si erm si? No wonder nowsadays got global warming. 27,000 devotees sure make abundance of hot air… Ehhhh, devotee ahhh! What circumlocutions ahhh? What lack of substance ahhh, you can show me? You see how I got engage your points, is not even point just throw some words oni. But I still got ask you to show me, not just brush you aside with ad hominem! You can show me, instead of just you give one sweeping statement, brush what I got say aside? Your TKH Pharisee oways oso got do that, never even engage me when I post my response to his gleek translations. If you say my point got lack substance, you can show me? You say got no style I can agree lahhh, but then hokkienpeng is hokkienpeng. But just because outward form of England presentation is not so nice donch mean the inner quality of points got no substance. I alredy answer you, you can show me where is lack of substance and circumloctions OK?

Hehehehehehe, use powderful England words is no big deal, is just vomit power lahhh! Hehehehe, your dragon general TKH Pharisee try use powderful gleek words oso in the end I got show him is just kumpooi vomit power hot air oni.
michaellow on December 7th, 2009 7:03 pm

To michaellow ahhhhh

U got say “Why don’t we continue the discussion at YOUR blog. At least have the guts to let us know who you are (and to stand by your bravado). Hehehehehehe, this one is so cheap shot. You yourself got hide in cyberspace and then tell me to reveal myself. You are just another devotee troll, lurking here. Your pastor got ask poster to speak their mind tio boh? So I got speak my mind. So far, no one of you 27,000 devotees got engage what I say, oni got resort to cheap attacks like this one. Hehehehehehe

You got say “Your supporters (if they are not imaginary and you in impersonation) could also better rally around you.” I need supporters? No wonder your lautar need 27,000 devotees to support Hehehehehehe, I oni need God’s promise, “How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?” Deut 32:30. What promise you got ahhh?

You oso say “For all your criticisms of him, Pastor Kong is at least brave enough to stand by his opinions.” Brave ahhhh? Like he got go Sweden and slime one Singapore megachurch pastor? Some more say got the tapes of the preacher but dare not mention name of preacher. Hehehehehe, I got hear it here http://alvinology.wordpress.com/2009/11/09/pastor-kong-hee-on-cheap-grace-preachers/ ….. But most resonate with me is this comment by tan posted on blog, “Actually, both are guilty of……cheat grace.” Hehehehehe, this comment is so funny one. BTW, your lautar got oso mention about people from the “religious fraternity” who got criticize his wife. You got say your pastor brave enough to stand by his opinions ahhh? Why he dare not mention who they are ahhh? Is true right so why not brave? Why not show verbatim text of what they got write to him ahhh? This one is brave or not? You tell me can?

So you want say “Your actions, if I may, put you spectacularly into the class of what we call, cowards. Step out into the light and lets spar as gentlemen. “ You can tell your lautar I oso expect he set the example first can? Step out into the light and spar with those he got disagree with. If cannot, maybe he oso get the C label tio boh?
To michaellow on December 7th, 2009 7:11 pm

Well done.

You have successfully evaded all questions once again.

How long will you hide behind the mask to hurl lies?

What benefit is that yo your soul?

Ad hominem? Check your understanding.

You have committed that fallacy far more in your expositions.

Having said all, nothing has changed.

You persist to hide behind your pseudonym to hurl slanders.

All can see what you are doing.

I pity you.

Have a good evening.
michaellow on December 7th, 2009 7:14 pm

ehhhhh choo gang ahhh! I got job for you, volunteer to be Baruch one. You OK. If can email me
michaellow1972@yahoo.com.sg
a muse on December 7th, 2009 7:16 pm

Hi michaellow,
I dedicate my poem to you.

i believe in cheap grace
so i will go to Pastor Kong’s blog
hurl unfounded accusations at him
insult his wife
slander his church
mock at his members
lie about the church i come from
and go to bed
knowing that God will forgive me
because
i believe in cheap grace

I wake up the next day
and i repeat my deeds again
because
i believe
in cheap grace

by a muse on 2009-12-06 at 5:32 pm
michaellow on December 7th, 2009 7:19 pm

To michaellow

Errr you are right, nothing has changed. You are still the CHC troll interested to give ad hominem attack oni. So troll ahhh, this one is your ticket to oblivion OK? I bery good to ignore trolls who just got repeat themselves, Ad Nauseum. Goodbye troll. hehehehehe
michaellow on December 7th, 2009 7:24 pm

a muse

You do what you want lor? Like as though I care what you do! I donch even belog to NCC, where you got the idea ahhh? Thats why I got laugh when one post in alvinology blog got say, refer to to both pastors one, “Actually, both are guilty of……cheat grace.”

So you got do what you want OK? You oni answer to God not to me OK. But if he got blog, you post here link can? I oso very got interested to see if he got shallow handling of scripture like your lautar.
Eunice Lin on December 7th, 2009 7:31 pm

Micheallow,

I feel sorry for you.
You think you are being a good christian by writing negative things about others.
You think you are being funny in pretending to write badly.

You are not.

Your comments are mean and revealing of the person you are.

I hope you will do some reflections & ask if God is happy with your words.
Tan Lucy on December 7th, 2009 7:39 pm

Hi Eunice,

You are right. He thinks he is being funny but yucks!
To michaellow on December 7th, 2009 7:43 pm

Oh…
Trolls?
Resorting to name-calling now huh?
Cheap shot.
But why am I not surprised.
Tsk.
a muse on December 7th, 2009 7:45 pm

Huh? Michaellow…
Surely even you can do better.
What sort of reply is that?
:)
michaellow on December 7th, 2009 8:58 pm

Dear Eunice

Ehhehehehehe, maybe you can oso preach to your own CHC devotees same message can? You got read their comments in shallow unwholesomeness ahhhh? Long before I got post here, they awready got post many negative things about others, tio boh? Some more got call others so terrible names. Mostly is your devotees just got reap what thhey sow! Preach to your lautar oso can? So you tell me “I hope you will do some reflections & ask if God is happy with your words.” But you oso can ask your lautar same question can?
Eunice Lin on December 7th, 2009 9:30 pm

so it revenge for you?

tsk.
michaellow on December 7th, 2009 9:35 pm

hehehehe, Eunice ah-ger ahhh, whatever you say ahhh, whatever you say :). When you got some substance in your post, mebbe I got take time to answer you.. hehehehehe :)
Eunice Lin on December 7th, 2009 9:47 pm

Just to let you know that
1. I am disgusted by your action
2. I feel sorry that you still think what you are doing is right
3. I pity the church you represent
4. Your motive for revenge is plain for all to see
5. I forgive your insolent remarks.

No need to reply.
Ray on December 7th, 2009 9:52 pm

haha!

michaellow is tasting his own medicine!
michaellow on December 7th, 2009 9:59 pm

Hehehehehe, I awredy got say, whaever you say, hehehehehe, whatever you say. Since you got nothing new but some personal attack, please got feel free to join my ignore list OK? hehehehehe
Frank Lee on December 7th, 2009 10:15 pm

waaa mikey
u very funny leh
u say other pp not persoanl atatck
pp say u then personal atatck
solid lah broither
super duper good way of thinking

make nwhat u say supoer credible.

no wonder u so full of _
haha

u poor thinbk ah u
Eunice Lin on December 7th, 2009 10:23 pm

Hi Frank & Ray,

Don’t be so hard on michaellow

He is just out to demean & denigrate Pastor.

Any sensible person can see that.

Only a fool will believe him and waste time reading his comments.

Lets rise above him & put him on OUR ignore list.

Dear Moderator,

Perhaps, micahellow should be put on a block list, given his irresponsible and immature comments.

Speaking your mind does not entail making accusation and slanders.

Sincerely,
Eunice Lin Ru Hui
MyNamezIsAhHuatTar on December 8th, 2009 1:05 am

Hue just got releazed from “Hindi-Tude of Mantle Health” uh?
They electrocutezzz you shiok hor not? U got engjoy d madz klazz? Zo now U keng countz butter lar …

Forgot to take your medikazion again..bad,oooh..siow liau
Thau hong again.

Seez, yuezzzz should go back to the “Hindi-Tude of Mantle Healthz” again. I tell the nurse not to BBQ yue this time, oso the other piplez to be nizezz to hue and donch put cowdung into your mouth zo much.

Told them U got abuizzed vely much when U waz yangz and kena buttzzzz hay-lotzzz , zo itz glue up likez to butt alybuddy. Bad kambingz. Hole-daze huh, like to fightz fightz with shadowz.
Lag luvs…

Poor thingz. Kengotz lite yingerish and kengnotz countz.

Goat Blitz Yue.
TKH on December 8th, 2009 5:26 am

Dear michaellow,

Hey, you are still around?

God bless you still …

TKH
michaellow on December 8th, 2009 6:45 am

Hi Eunice

You got say “speaking your mind does not entail making accusations and slanders”. Ok, I take this is fair statement, so I oni just engage your statement with logic and reason because that look like is main thesis of your post about me. For sake of civility, I will oso avoid sarcasm, cutting remarks or to refer to your personality. I oso got avoid mean remarks of the CHC cyber lynch-mob. I agree with you, no need to go down to another person’s level, always rise up above theirs.

You got say I make accusation! Accusation definition “is an assertion that someone is guilty of a fault or offence.” What I got do is to oni examine one conclusion of your lautar in his blog on suffering. I give a critique to say that is not proper handling of scripture. I asked how he can support his thesis that ‘Job was not BROKEN UNTO THE LORD’ with scriptural passages, tio boh? For that point, he oni got quote Job 42:5. To this point, I got stress that we must always see context of verse in the passage first and not just use verse linguistically. This one is critique of his METHOD of interpretation. This is wrong? If you take time to read books on how to interpret Bible text, you will always see they emphasize this point. I got read in one book, I think is Gordon Fee, where got say ‘a text without a context is a pretext’. You oso can just google this phrase to see what I mean because is commonly used.

Is this the accusation you think I got I make against your lautar? But is this accusation? I oni just engage his point. If anyone got think my counter-point wrong, is OK, can just educate me. But just engage with logic and reason can? Everyone got entitle to defend what they say with logic and reason, correct? So far oni TKH try but unfortunately he oso oni used sweeping statements that I am wrong, missed the point but never use specific points or specific Bible text to defend the lautar’s thesis. If I got make any unsubstantiated below-the-belt accusation, you can show me? That is what basically accusation is tio boh? Hitting below the belt? I oso at this point apologise to TKH for calling him those names. I got upset because of his condescending words to other posters here so I react over-the-top and thrash both him and his ego. But I got do it too much, I agree, sorry for that.
michaellow on December 8th, 2009 7:00 am

Description of Ad Hominem
Translated from Latin to English, “Ad Hominem” means “against the man” or “against the person.”

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of “argument” has the following form:

Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on person A.
Therefore A’s claim is false.
The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

Example of Ad Hominem

Bill: “I believe that abortion is morally wrong.”
Dave: “Of course you would say that, you’re a priest.”
Bill: “What about the arguments I gave to support my position?”
Dave: “Those don’t count. Like I said, you’re a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can’t believe what you say.”

Source of article http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html
Frank Lee on December 8th, 2009 11:57 am

Waa mikey u still here ah!
I see u webt googling hor!

Nor bad lah! Ad homineem
Bad then hor, in yr eg above..m u seenm to be playing the role of Dave leh

Attacking a pastor’ character, qualification etc..
So YOU are commiting ad hominem lah.

Can understand or not?
Even me not eduicated can see…

Doubch undertsand leh.
U coMmit ad homoinem then keep saying pp commit adhomibion like u very smaryt like tt.

Do us all a favour.

Go back to school or go ask daddy lah

Aiyo
Eunice Lin on December 8th, 2009 12:02 pm

Hmm…

I thought michaellow putting us on ignore list?

Somebody has no life.

I can’t believe he really went to google ad hominem.

Incredible!

Okay lah michaellow, u right. We are wrong. Happy?
Now go back to yr pacifier.
a muse on December 8th, 2009 12:10 pm

Ay monkey opps mickey still here?

I thought we gonna continue discussion at YOUR blog?

Why? Too chicken ah?

Btw.. This is NOT ad hominem.

Ha ha!

Trust you to hide behind epistemological terms that you poorly understand.

Seriously, let’s continue our debate at YOUR blog leh! Since its about You & YOUR version of theology that I am starting to get really interested in.
Gordon on December 8th, 2009 3:00 pm

Michaellow,

I agree with a muse. I am also very interested in your theology.

It is always easy to sit & criticise. Anybody can do that.

The question is:
Have you written anything of value?

Can I visit your blog?

I am most interested.
Aubrey on December 8th, 2009 3:01 pm

Hi Thanks Micheallow

You are right. THe scripture that Pastor indicated about Job being broken – I also feel it is a feely, touchy thing suggested by Pastor Kong – not supported by Scripture.

Yes, no one has refuted your point and Pastor Kong stands corrected.

We live, we fall sick, we have miscarriage, we die.

We suffer, and we cling to God and we do not ask him ‘Why me.”

To think that we have a Lord Almighty purposefully ‘breaking’ us is a slap in God’s merciful face.

Jesus forgives us. He does not take a cane to us to make us better.

Thanks Michaellow.

Really, ignore the minions and focus on the Word.

God bless you.

Look forward to more of your posts here!

Why does Pastor allow for comments here?

Cos he was conned of a papermill Phd and needs all the help he can get.

That is why the comments are not disabled.
alamak - cart jumble with horse on December 8th, 2009 3:07 pm

stupid blog:

Quote from blog:
Job is like the Christian who has not come to a place where he can say, “For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain” (Phil. 1:21), or “I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me” (Gal. 2:20).

Unquote

Sorry – Job – old testament hor.

That time no Christ yet…..how??
Frank Lee on December 8th, 2009 3:11 pm

Aubrey aubrey,

Waa solid ah
The way u think also reali cute.

Haha..
So if comments were to be disabled, we have aubry aubdry to thank lah!

Interested in micjeymouse”s theology than go his blog to talk lah
Why come here & be upset?

Orr! I know liao… Cos mickeymouse too chickenb too give us his blog addresss…
So hisfans like aubrey aubdry got noi choice but come here &k talk!
Come o mickeymouse! We need your blog toi go too ah!

Or maybve aubrey aubrey ah…
U got blog for to discuss YOUR theology or not?

Since u like fren of mickey!

Tata! Mickey & frens! See u at yr blog!
Gordon on December 8th, 2009 3:14 pm

Hello michaellow minion aka aubrey,

Why do you call others minions?

Why don’t you tell us who you are? Never see you comment before, suddenly shoot out from nowhere in defence of michaellow!

Very suspicious.
Very telling.

Nuff said!
Gordon on December 8th, 2009 3:18 pm

Alamak!
READ
‘LIKE the Christian’
Not The Christian.

Tsk.

Who is THE ’stupid’ one here?

You failed English still want to come here & act smart.

Shame on you.
alamak - cart jumble with horse on December 8th, 2009 3:21 pm

Pastor Kong started off with Scripture:

Quote
The Scripture introduces Job as someone who was “blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil” (Job 1:1). In fact, Job’s morality was so legendary that he was listed twice as one of the three most righteous men in the Old Testament (Ezek. 14:14, 20). He was a spiritually mature man, not a novice in the things of God.

CHC devotees please note:

The last part about Job not broken – it all becomes feely, touchy, contextual (based on TKH understanding) that avoided scriptures from the old testament.

What Pastor said does not make sense.

Conclusion about Book of Job – this is so difficult that up to this date, many scholars are still confounded as to why Bad things happen to Good people.

But maybe we should not ask Why Me?,

and we do not pretend that we know the answer like Pastor Kong does – or we will be come like God himself.
Aubrey on December 8th, 2009 3:24 pm

oh – thanks -

quick replies :)

Micheallow – let us see how many quote scriptures ok to support Kong on Job BEING BROKEN….

My guess – after 20 posts ….errrr – ZERO.
Aubrey on December 8th, 2009 3:39 pm

while the minions write, let us know that many Christians are in suffering and need this blog to understand God’s Scripture.

Let us focus on Pastor’s good words and focus on scripture – not the man Pastor and the man Michaellow…..

What did the Bible say?

Gordon, Frank – please help where you can.
Aubrey on December 8th, 2009 3:44 pm

Gordon – thanks – your input is edifying….

Alamak!
READ
‘LIKE the Christian’
Not The Christian

Job – in the old testament should have acted like the Christian who says

“For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain” (Phil. 1:21), or “I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me” (Gal. 2:20).

Right – that makes complete sense to me.
Peter on December 8th, 2009 3:53 pm

Sometimes, I hope Pastor Kong write in comments section….

it can be embarrassing – some of the comments.
michaellow on December 9th, 2009 9:50 pm

aubrey ahhhh, his point #7 oso is shaky lahhh. Another day I come to write here with reason and logic. To show this point got like sieve, leaking water oni!
michaellow on December 9th, 2009 10:35 pm

OK lahhhh alll… It is Christmas in 2 weeks time. Because is season of peace and goodwill, I oso think I must extend peace and goodwill.

I got ask for forgiveness from all for sharp and offensive remarks. This because I just got get epiphany. Oso sincere apologies to the lautar. Words spoken cannot take back I know, so I oni can say I not post anymore to demand any answers or criticize. I will just pray from now on. What I got do here is oso no good for my own spiritual life. I will beat my sword into a plowshare for my own use.

Godbless all of you and I got really mean it
Ben Jen on December 10th, 2009 5:57 am

Ever wonder why CHC pastors are always asking for money during offering time in services? They often give a “long” sermon to ask you to give. The main reason is if you look at CHC audited financial statements at their church website, you will see lots of DEFICITS. Amazing isn’t it? This only shows the congregation at CHC is not supporting this cultural mandate and not giving to the church. So much so for the “largest” church in Singapore!
a muse on December 10th, 2009 12:09 pm

hi micheaellow,

God Bless You!

Have a good Christmas with your loved ones.
a muse on December 10th, 2009 12:21 pm

Ben Jen,

You are obviously trying to stir up trouble.
You have posted the same remark on the bother page and now you are here.

Who are you? Where do you come from?
Anyway to address your claim

Some quick answers
“Ever wonder why CHC pastors are always asking for money during offering time in services?”Ben Jen

1.Of course, we collect money during offering.

What do you give during offering in church? doves?

“They often give a “long” sermon to ask you to give. ” Ben Jen

2. Your definition of long? Watch our sercvice live on the internet.

Offering sermons are seldom longer than 7 mins.

“The main reason is if you look at CHC audited financial statements at their church website, you will see lots of DEFICITS.” Ben Jen

3. You sure you know how to read financial statements??

The church finances are healthy.

“This only shows the congregation at CHC is not supporting this cultural mandate and not giving to the church.” Ben Jen
Nonsense!

4. Nothing can be further than the Truth.

Your leap of logic is lurdicrous and irrational.

The congregation turns up week after week faithfully and give
generously for a reason.

We are no fools.

“So much so for the “largest” church in Singapore!” Ben Jen

5. Thank you.
Choo Gang on December 10th, 2009 7:27 pm

Why is another sermon needed during the offering? Why not let the Holy Spirit speak to the people instead of using your own strength to persuade people? Seven minutes is certainly a long time to encourage people to give money.
Ben Jen on December 11th, 2009 8:02 am

Extract of audited financial statements.

Incoming Receipts *Jan 2006-Jun 2007(S$’000) *Jul 2007-Oct 2008 S$’000) 2007-8
% of Total Receipts
Donations 46,073 47,491 95.95%
Bible Training Centre Income 943 1,183 2.39%
Gain on Sale of Subsidiary, Property, Plant & Equipment 0 17 0.04%
Miscellaneous 627 804 1.62%
Total Receipts 47,643 49,495 100.0%

Expenses *Jan 2006-Jun 2007(S$’000) *Jul 2007-Oct 2008
(S$’000) 2007-8
% of Total Receipts
Audio & Lighting Ministry 1,387 1,256 2.54%
Bible Training Centre Expenditure 782 1,415 2.86%
Bus Hire 84 22 0.04%
Capital Expenses (Depreciation) 580 492 0.99%
Children’s Church 808 843 1.70%
Chinese & Dialect (Cantonese/Hokkien) Church 546 531 1.07%
Christian Television Broadcast & Mass Media 849 793 1.60%
Church Television Ministry 1,508 2,105 4.25%
Creative Ministries 347 371 0.75%
Deficit of Food & Others 0 0 0.00%
Discipleship & Training 258 168 0.34%
Indonesia Church 0 38 0.08%
Internet Broadcast 635 573 1.16%
JB Ministry 0 47 0.09%
Jesus for All Minds (JAMS) Church 211 214 0.43%
Local Community & Charity Work 2,913 4,556 9.20%
Mission Support & Church Planting 8,656 9,599 19.39%
Other Operating & Administration Expenses 11,653 10,345 20.90%
Others** 2 974 1.97%
Outreach Materials 1,587 647 1.31%
Rental Expenses 1,399 2,942 5.94%
Special Events (Big Days) 3,842 1,821 3.68%
Staff Salaries & Allowances*** 10,036 10,706 21.63%
Tamil Ministry 0 5 0.01%
Total Expenditure 48,084 50,462 101.95%
Excess / (Deficit) (441) -967 -2%
Ben Jen on December 11th, 2009 8:05 am

Ever wonder why the other pastors of CHC are not featured on the church website and only PK is featured? So much so for a volunteer. Those pastors receiving salaries are not even listed on the website, not even the 2IC Pastor Tan. Strange isn’t it?
Ben Jen on December 11th, 2009 4:36 pm

Is She Pastor Ho Yeow Sun?
Is Ho Yeow Sun a pastor? If you are familiar with City Harvest Church, you probably would not have missed the controversy that surrounded her when she entered the secular music industry; a controversy based on arguments that it was inappropriate for a pastor to do so. I’ve read that the church leaders have in recent years sought to distance her from the tag ‘pastor’. Personally, I have encountered this possible policy a few years back when I noticed that the church bulletin started addressing her differently.

That to me was rather disappointing – disappointing because of an article published by the magazine Harvest Times.

In this article, it says “Sun is coming out…The message of effervescence and joy spreads to the Asian masses as music pastor Ho Yeow Sun delivers truly heavenly pop.”

I found this magazine when i was packing for the moving of my house. So when she first started her career, there was the deliberate positioning to associate her as a music/singing pastor.

PK has totally comprised christian values for his cultural mandate rubbish!
yunyi_karen on December 11th, 2009 11:34 pm

I think we believers of God forget that what matters more is not what we see, but what God sees. After all, life on Earth is so short, and eternity with God – or without – is so much longer.

We shouldn’t judge a person’s faith by what we see. Only that person himself knows vaguely, or thinks he knows, how faithful he is to God and how far he is willing to go for Him – and only God himself truly can judge. Don’t be quick to say someone else isn’t morally upright or as faithful as he should be because of some things you see. What matters more to God is the unseen.
yunyi_karen on December 11th, 2009 11:37 pm

While I was reading the comments some people asked, so why do some “bad” people appear to be “blessed” with good things? Life is short and eternity after death is so long. They will be judged, along with all of us, for every wrongdoing. Don’t look at how fortunate or blessed or wealthy or influential a person seems to be. Listen, instead, to the things he says, and for God speaking in Him (or note the lack of).
leila on December 12th, 2009 2:20 am

Dear everyone,

Personally I feel that the offering message is to encourage people to give. After all God loves the cheerful givers and ‘the just shall live by faith’. So as we give, an offering message is often shared to build up the members’ faith so that as they give they can have the cheerful attitude towards the Lord.

I have never timed the offering message, but I feel that the timing is irrelevant as long as the Word of God is being brought forth. It is not by one’s own strength that one shares the offering message as one is sharing from God’s Word and not out of one’s own wisdom, right? It is not ‘charity donation’ time but offering time.

Also the issue of Sun’s being called a Pastor. I do not understand why one would feel this is equivalent of losing Christian values for the cultural mandate. I do not think that Christian values exist in a name or title but in the heart. Those who love and know Sun would know she has a heart for people, ‘pastoral’ or otherwise – it is a shepherd’s heart of love for people simply because Jesus gave His life for them. Lets not accuse her or Pastor of losing sight of Christian values when Sun has done so much – giving to humanitarian work in China, Sri Lanka etc.

Such giving is what embodies Christian values and not our title or whose photo is on the website.

Once again, if we do not understand, let us not be quick to judge but allow God to move in us.

Be blessed!
Thanks Pastor for a great post again!
TKH_original on December 16th, 2009 4:21 pm

Dear Ben Jen,

You said “Ever wonder why the other pastors of CHC are not featured on the church website and only PK is featured? So much so for a volunteer. Those pastors receiving salaries are not even listed on the website, not even the 2IC Pastor Tan. Strange isn’t it?”

Firstly, I think it is a normal practice for any organziation or churches to mention their respective founders. I don’t think it is anything strange.

Secondly, (IMHO) due to our mission works and outreaches, I think it is better not for us to put up any of our workers name on the website too openly.

I also do not understand your intention for bringing Sun into this blog topic, obviously you have other motives.

I think you have to check out and study more first before you called cultural mandate a rubbish, else you may not know what you are talking …

Btw, looking at CHC financial statements, I am really proud as we spend close to 20% on mission works and close to 10% on local charity work. The staff salary is a surprising low 21% for a non-profit organization.

God bless.

TKH
TKH_original on December 19th, 2009 1:11 am

Dear Ben Jen,

I can see that you are trying very hard to post in every topic … keep it up … cos your intention is very clear … : )

God bless …

TKH
stanley on December 19th, 2009 6:09 pm

Let’s ALL share and say something wonderful that we can agreed on.

HAPPY HAPPY CANDLE LIGHT SERVICE AT EXPO HALL 8 21/12/2008 10AM SERVICE

MERRY CHRISTMAS 25th Dec 2009 at EXPO HALL 8 10am or 12.30 service. Come at least half an hour earlier.

God bless all who loves the words of God and people.
TKH_original on December 22nd, 2009 7:02 pm

Dear Ben Jen,

I really feel sorry for you … just to let you know that no matter what bad things you have experienced, please know that Jesus loves you …

Will pray that you will come to experience the love of God again and have a renewed relationship with Him …

God bless …

TKH
BayeeSingh on December 24th, 2009 3:33 pm

Benjen,

http://www.youtube.com/user/benjen7

I maybe smelly on the outside but you are really smelly heart.
Ben Jen on December 25th, 2009 11:23 am

BayeeSingh,

You smell! Please go back to India!!! LOL!!!
BayeeSingh on December 26th, 2009 3:04 am

To ■Ben Jen on December 25th, 2009 11:23 am

Har! Har! Har huh huh huh…..

What a pariah person you are. No life, looser, keep condeming successful people because you so jealous. No brains to comment yourself so keep cutting and pasting other people remarks over and over again.

Huh huh huh! so worked up. All your negative posting shows how shallow and evil you are. Come dar! I bring you to Punjab and make you sit on fire hydrant and make it disappear. Then perhaps you shall find some fulFILLment yin life. huih huh huh bladdy loser.

Cannot sing, cannot dance, wrinkle skin, 4ft 2in hunchback, crooked nose, flat chested. Oh so low grade.witch.
Ha ha ha wallow in self pity while the world is rejoicing. Cow backside fliy you are. If you learn to be more humble maybe pple pity you. But you are cow dung. Lo Lo grade

Chicken ..no talent.. loser..huh huh huh …Hatcha.
Small smelly yoni.
Ben Jen on December 28th, 2009 12:04 pm

To: ■BayeeSingh on December 26th, 2009 3:04 am

Cao Bayee!!! Little India wants you out!

LOL!!!!!!
BayeeSingh on December 28th, 2009 7:43 pm

To Ben Jen on December 28th, 2009 12:04 pm

Huh..Huh..Huh..

Why don’t you sit on yourself and making yourself disappear!
Small little witch. And re-appear into NCC for good … ya..hah hah hah…….WooHoo!

Ahh…ha..ha..ha..har!!
genevieve.lim on December 29th, 2009 2:31 am

Thank you pastor kong for this post. Now i understand more and I am so inspired to pray more. Sometimes it may be hard, but we must learn to press on and never loose grip of the situation. My cgc once told me that God always has a miracle up His sleeve and up till today I still remember that. (:
I believe these are trials that God puts us through only for the better. Sincere thanks, pastor! (:
BayeeSingh on December 30th, 2009 1:55 pm

TO Ben Jen on December 29th, 2009 10:43 pm

Huh! Huh! Huh!
You sure you got an ass?
Probably flat…Yah…hah! Hah! Hah! Hah!
Witch!
Ben Jen on December 30th, 2009 6:46 pm

To ■BayeeSingh on December 30th, 2009 1:50 pm

Bayee Bayee Chao Bayee!

LOL!