| 1. |
Why is there a need for CHC to secure such a huge facility? |
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We need a facility that will be able to accommodate the congregations from our English Services, Children’s Church, Chinese Church, Dialect Church, JAMs (Jesus for All Minds) Church, Indonesian Service, Tamil Service, and Filipino Service. By God’s grace, we have been growing steadily and our database name list currently stands at 32,731. |
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At the same time, the cost of hall rentals in Singapore has been increasing. It therefore makes financial sense to have our own facility in the long run. What’s more, our ability to rent halls for worship depends on their availability and other contractual terms. Having our own property means we will no longer subject our congregations to the risk of not being able to rent a facility for use, or having to move from time to time to different venues. |
| 2. |
Why does the project cost S$310 million? |
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There are three factors to consider regarding the cost of a project: |
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a. |
The size of the property: the land size of the property is large enough to contain a 12,000-seater auditorium to accommodate the needs of our growing congregation. |
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b. |
The location of the property: CHC has members coming from all over the island. Centrality and ease of access via public transportation is important to us. |
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c. |
The facilities of the property: The building will have many meeting rooms and restaurants, with sufficient car parking space for our congregants and the general public. |
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| 3. |
What type of building will the facility be housed in? Integrated mall? Or purely a place of worship? |
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It is not purely a place of worship. This property has a 12,000-seater auditorium, and many other meeting rooms and F&B outlets. |
| 4. |
Why does the church need to be in the CBD area? |
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We already have an existing church building at Jurong West. But our members come from all over the island. Proximity and accessibility by public transportation is the key factor behind our decision to find another facility that is in the central district of Singapore. |
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| 5. |
How does CHC plan to finance the project? |
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We will finance the project from the free-will contributions of our members. |
| 6. |
CHC is planning to spend S$310 million on their building, shouldn’t CHC take care of the poor and needy instead? |
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CHC spends 20 percent of its annual budget on local community and overseas humanitarian work to help the poor and needy. This work has been ongoing since the church began in 1989. For example, in the aftermath of the Aceh tsunami and Haiti earthquake, CHC volunteered teams of doctors and disaster relief workers with medical supplies, tents and water filters to help the victims. In addition, CHC has been actively giving to missions work and supporting its network of churches all over Asia. With a facility to house the church’s growing congregation and multifaceted ministries, we can serve the needs of the community in an even greater way. |
| 7. |
Economically, wouldn’t the church save more money if its facility is outside of CBD or in the suburbs of Singapore? |
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Properties are scarce and property prices are generally high throughout Singapore. The key consideration behind our choice of location is proximity and accessibility for our members. |
| 8. |
What does CHC plan to achieve in undertaking this massive project? |
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The facility is meant to meet the needs of our growing congregation for a place of worship. It also allows CHC to move from its present expensive rental model to a more financially sustainable ownership model for the long term. |
| 9. |
Since majority of the activities of the church are on weekends, how will the building be used during the weekdays? Isn’t it a waste of space? |
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The facilities of the property and F&B outlets are open to the public daily. During the weekdays, the auditorium will be used from time-to-time as a venue for seminars, conferences, arts and cultural performances. |
| 10. |
According to the laws of Singapore, can worship services be held within the Central Business District? |
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There is no legal restriction against conducting worship services in the CBD area, provided zoning and other legal requirements are met. Currently there are more than 30 places of worship in downtown Singapore. These include churches, temples and mosques such as St. Andrew’s Cathedral, Wesley Methodist Church, Orchard Road Presbyterian Church, Sri Mariamman Temple, Masjid Jamae Chulia, Kwan Im Thong Hood Cho Temple, Maghain Aboth Synagogue; just to name a few. We will ensure that use of our new facility does not breach zoning restrictions or other legal restrictions applicable to the facility. |
| 11. |
Since CHC already owns a property in Jurong West, why does it need another facility? |
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CHC has long outgrown the facility at Jurong West as its capacity is limited to 2,300 people. Our present congregation is more than 14 times the maximum capacity of our Jurong West building. Since 2005 we have had to rent premises at Singapore Expo to accommodate our congregations. |
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It should also be noted that the new facility does not mean the Jurong West church building will be redundant. Activities such as outreach to the elderly and children living in the Jurong area will continue. The property in Jurong West will still be utilized for training, counseling, prayers, etc. |
| 12. |
Should CHC elect to have its facility in the downtown area, would there be a potential for crowds and traffic jams in the already crowded CBD? |
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This is an important consideration which we factored into our planning for the new facility. There is ample car parking space, and the roads surrounding the property are wide enough to ensure smooth traffic. |
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Hi Pastor,
Firstly, I want to thank City Harvest Members for really contributing their finances, time and energy to the relief work in Haiti. A friend of mine from an International Relief agency remarked that CHC is doing great work over there, and that they are happy that City Harvest is in Haiti helping the poor and needy. This is a great sacrifice on the part of the members despite that Haiti is more than 24 hours away by plane. I think City Harvest deserves to be applauded on this issue! Well done CHC!
I think it is also really exciting news that City Harvest Church is finally getting its new building, and even better when you are getting a place in a central location and probably located near churches such as St. Andrew’s Cathedral and Wesley Methodist Church.
Rental costs in Singapore is crazy and I think it makes great financial sense to have it’s own land and location. In fact, I believe that CHC will not be the first church to look into having a large auditorium, in a convenient location. Churches in the States such as the one pastured by Joel Osteen also has a large auditorium that can sit more than 10,000 people! With the saving in rental costs, I believe that the church is making a sound investment.
Your blog post also highlights that the church spends 20 percent of its income on missions. I have traveled extensively into other countries such as Taiwan and Indonesia, and I have a lot of Christian friends who tell me about how they have benefitted from the financial seed that CHC has sown into their nation.
Personally, I also do not know of any other church locally or internationally that spends as much as 20% of its annual budget on missions. CHC’s willingness to sow financial seeds and manpower into foreign lands is definitely commendable. I believe that it must be a great sacrifice for CHC, as the church has a lot of good work to support locally as well.
Once again, I congratulate you on your land, and I am looking forward to see your new building.
In Chirst,
Matthew Chan
Dear Pastor,
Thank you for taking the time to explain the reasons and motivations behind CHC’s effort in acquiring a piece of land in the central area for the new building. Ever since the announcement of the initial news, I have been very excited about this miracle God is doing in CHC. As a church, we have been believing God for a new building so that more lives can be touched by the love of God. Truly it is not about building buildings, but it is really about building lives. Just like Solomon built a great temple in his times that is befitting the glory of God, I believe the church of the Jesus Christ today can also arise and build a great sanctuary to worship God. Of course not all will agree or understand with what CHC is doing. However, Jesus said in Mt 12:33 that “for a tree is known by its fruit.” I prayed and trust that as we do what God has tasked us to do, others may see the good works (positive impact) and glorified our Father in heaven (Mt 5:16).
Thank you for your inspiring leadership!
TKH
Dear Pastor,
Thank you for sharing with us the thought process behind the purchase of our new facility. The sound fundamentals in the buying decision shows the meticulous & forward-thinking of the church in wanting to serve the needs of the growing congregation in a few main areas:
1. The ease of access to the church via public transportation as the members are from all over the island.
2. The long term cost benefits in the shift from a rental model to a ownership model to combat the rising cost of hall rentals.
3. The capacity planning of the hall to house the growing congregation of 32,000 physically.
It’s also encouraging to read about the church’s commitment (20% of its annual budget on local community and overseas humanitarian work) to help the poor and needy.
At the end of the day, I believe with wise planning, the love of the members for the church and God’s grace, together we will/can achieve and do more for the good of our community demonstrating the Christ’s love, locally and globally.
Looking forward to ’shifting into our new house’!
Dear Pastor,
Looking forward to next weekend!
Dear Pastor,
Thank you for answering some of the questions that many critics would have regarding our new building. Based on your post, I have put together some thoughts on why it makes perfect sense for us to have our own place!
Looking forward to our building!
10 REASONS WHY WE SHOULD HAVE OUR OWN CHURCH BUILDING
(or what the critics should consider before launching another online assault)
1. Our current church building in Jurong West can no longer contain our large and growing congregation. Hence, it is completely logical for us to move into somewhere bigger.
2. Long term rental of halls is very expensive and never a permanent solution. I mean, how can it ever be right?
3. Rental of halls is always uncertain and subjected to availability such as the shifts from Hall 8 to Hall 1 every few months to give way to exhibitors. And believe you me, shifting of just one hall to another even just down the corridor is a MAJOR exercise.
4. It is good stewardship of money to have us own church building as its makes more financial sense to buy than rent in Singapore. Just do the maths.
5. A central location is good for everybody who comes from different parts of Singapore and for others to visit. I mean, no matter where you live, central is still reasonably central for you.
6. We have been giving generously to missions and to the poor and needy. And may I add, perhaps MORE than some of the critics who are getting ready to put in their two cents here.
7. We are NOT cutting back on its missions or community service budget so as to pump funds into the building project. So what is the problem?
8. Having its own facility will enable us to do more. This is definitely more conducive for us than to operate out of a place that could change every once in a while.
9. Money is raised from the members and NOT from the members of public. And if the members believe in the vision and are willing to give without compulsion, I see NO reason why we should not put up a top-class building in an central location.
10. The new church building is something that all of us can call home and be proud of. And that is a GOOD enough reason for me, and many of my friends.
Thanks Pastor for taking time to pen down so clearly FAQs regarding CHC’s new building.
Some of the facts laid out are basic principles that one uses when we make decisions about purchasing and financing a new home, esp in land scarce Singapore.
Pastor, when you put out so clearly in your sermons and on the blogsphere all the whys, whats, whens, whos, hows and where (next week, at least!), it makes all the foolish talk from critics look really foolish.
I’m so proud of what CHC is doing, esp being financially long-sighted. Continuing long term with ever increasing rental is ridiculous. Having our own building, and in turn, becoming landlords for conference/seminar venues makes fantastic returns!
And I love my church for thinking for all our members! Those at the end of the Northeast line, those in the East and West would all have the convenience of coming to church in a central location.
Thank you for your leadership and vision for the church!
Hi Ps, thanks for doing up this FAQ for us. As a member of your church, I feel even more convicted about building a great House for the Lord and I am now better able to prepare to give a ready (and steady) defence of what we are doing here at CHC! Thanks Ps for always empowering and educating us!
So looking forward to the exciting news next weekend!
Praise God that He has given us wise leaders with great foresight, knowledge and leadership!
With this new facility, CHC will be so much more accessible to our members and provide so much more room for growth.
Can’t wait to hear where the location will be !
Dear Pastor,
What a great post!
Thank you for reminding us of such a powerful verse ‘for the LORD must be exceedingly magnificent, famous and glorious throughout all the lands’ (1 Chr. 22:5). David’s perspective and attitude is indeed one that we should opt for with regards to a building for God’s house!
It is great to be reminded of the church’s community work, the 20% contribution to places like Aceh and Haiti. In this new building, I’m sure we can grow to greater things in such community outreaches.
Awaiting for the news of the location eagerly!
dear pastor,
thank you for sharing your thoughts. we are all excited about the new building!
however, i have serious concerns about the way the church counts its attendance.
from my observation, the following numbers are over-estimates of the number of attendees:
english at expo – 5000 x 2 = 10000
english at jurong west – 1500×2=3000
children’s church=2000
chinese church=1000
indonesian church=1000
jams church=1000
filippino and tamil service=1000
all those are actually already severely over-estimated. and they only total up to 19000. can the church please explain how 32,000 us tabulated? does the figure include affiliated churches? or is the figure for a fortnight’s attendance?
thank you.
tkh
Hi TKH,
Don’t think these are over-estimates because these aren’t estimates in the first place.
These are active members in cell-groups, rather than attendance figures. Some of these people are in and out of the country, overseas for their studies, work, etc.
As for weekend attendances for big-days like Christmas/Easters, it would be well over 40-50,000 people. We don’t count these in the report.
TKH,
your estimates are also flawed, missing out the dialect services and far-underestimates of the services in JW. There’re more than 2,000 in the children’s church and the two english services definitely sit more than 1,500 each.
a bit contradicting isnt it? in and out of the country so cannot make it for svc yet an active member? even if we add those in dialect svc and make some adjustments to tkh’s estimates, it would total up to 30000++ as well right?
and indo svc has only 100+ members if i’m not mistaken. filipino+tamil’s members are also below 1000
i’m just curious hehe
To ■TKH_authentic,
Hmm … another of my impersonation? Hahaha …
Anyway, I think you are very flawed in your estimation … I personally think for a church of our size with members actively engaging in the marketplace, there are probably thousands of members in and out of the country weekly, as well as many who might missed servive due to work or family commitment. There may be absent once a while, but that does not imply they are not members of CHC.
I have been in CHC for a while, and I know we are probably one of the few churches in the world that really keep track of our weekly attendances. If you don’t believe, just approach any cell group leader to find out more. I think you are probably unfamiliar with our system of counting our people. However, I must say that we count people because people count, just like the good shepherd who counted his sheep and realized the lost one out of his 100 sheep.
If CHC is in the business of exaggerating our figures and lied about our growth, I am sure we would have “closed shop” long time ago …
God bless … ( I take it as a compliment for your impersonation of yours truly, just curious what is the motive … : )
TKH
i see…thank you all for clarification. so 32,000 is the MEMBERSHIP, not the ATTENDANCE. now i understand. but i still don’t understand how the attendance can be more than 10,000 lower than membership…it seems quite odd to me.
i mean, if we add:
dialect church – 1000
english jurong west services – 500×2=1000 (that means 4000 in total)
children’s church – 1000 (that means 3000 in total)
the grand total will still only add up to 22,000.
are 10,000 members overseas/sick/working etc each week? one-third of the church membership not being able to attend service on a weekly basis is rather shocking.
Hi Pastor, thank you so much for sharing these information with us beforehand. Service today was amazing and I really liked how you shared your personal experiences of encounters with the Holy Spirit as a child. My parents have finally allowed me to go for services regularly and I’m looking forward to hearing your sermons every week! Church is always the highlight of my week and your messages are always very enlightening and amazing. Can’t wait for the big reveal next week!
This information*
HI TKH_authentic
firstly, why are there do many TKH? quite interesting to see. O_O
anyway, based on twitter.com/chcsg, the average attendance for year 2009 is 28,134.
maybe you need to re-tabulate your numbers..
and im just wondering, how does the church attendance concerns you..?
just a thought. =)
hello guitarwu…i’m a chc member. so i’m just wondering how we count our attendance. i really don’t see 28,000 per week….hmmm…wonder how the church averages it.
and also, i’ve gotta add…
I CANT WAIT FOR THE NEW BUILDING!!
we’re really living in our dream. it’s awesome. i am happy to be part of this spiritual family. really thankful to Pst and the pioneers who lay down their lives for this church. thank you!! =)
hello tkh_authentic
wow. you reply real fast. this can become a chatroom! heh.
like what melvinchen has explained, the numbers are based on cellgroup membership..
maybe the reason why you dun see 28,000 is because you are not in every cellgroups? =)
Dear tkh_authentic
I think it’s obvious you are not as ‘authentic’ as you may post.
I just feel sad that while we are at the threshold of a new chapter of what God is doing in the history of our church and here you are questioning the ‘authenticity’ of the attendance (no pun intended) Why not try: celebrate the eve of the big moment for church with the rest of us ‘authentic’ members that ARE excited about this moment.
You mentioned you are a member of the church? For real? You just don’t give me the vibe that you are an authentic member.
IMHO, I think if you need to seek clarification on the matter of attendance why not speak directly to your CGL or your fellow members or friends? The church does use technology (READ: database) to keep track of its attendances. At the same time, we count real people i.e. physical count and not name count.
Pls seek clarifications with those around you, if not write to the church. Hope you are keeping tab on your own attendance to stay informed. :)
Hi Pastor!
Personally, I’m so excited for the building! I know we’re not just giving towards a physical building, but giving towards millions of lives being changed for God. I am so proud of our church and the vision that we are running towards! Despite all the detractors, Pastor you still press on and continue to be so far-sighted :) You are really an inspiration!
Thanks for really answering questions with the FAQs, it is really helpful! Thanks for being transparent and sharing with us.. even though you are not obligated to. It really means alot to me! Now I have a even clearer picture of why we are giving :)
It is truly a privilege to be part of CHC! :)
Sidenote: Nice one, guitarwu & danieljx! Haha :) Hi authentic brother, maybe you could attend every service and bring a counter along. Then you can “see” the actual attendance! :)
Wow Pastor!
Thank you for such an informative post! Like they said “knowledge is power”, With such a post, I believe queries can be answered and we can all stand together in Faith and Expectancy to see this new and exciting chapter of CHC’s history unfold! I am so looking forward to A&B weekend! Not only because we will finally know the exact location of our land but more so because its a time for all of us to pledge and give God a great offering for the building of His house!
I can’t wait to Arise and Build!! :)
Dear Pastor,
I was listening to “No Boundaries” by Kris Allen earlier, and I really feel that all we’ve been through as a Church and individually was just to lead us up to this moment, that God has really been preparing us in every aspect to enter into our promised land.
Your message on the Holy Spirit tonight was really a Word in season and words cannot express how encouraged we all were.
Just wanna encourage those reading this to ponder on the chorus of No Boundaries as we step over the threshold of a whole new era in Christiandom for our generation.
Love always,
Ruben
* No Boundaries *
Every step you climb another mountain
Every breathe its harder to believe
You’ll make it through the pain
Weather the hurricane
To get to that one thing
When you think the road is going nowhere
Just when you’ve almost gave up on your dreams
Then take it by the hand and show you that you can
There are no boundaries!
Dear Pastor,
Thank you for taking time to address the reasons for the need to find a bigger, more central worship location. I live up the far north of Singapore and spend a good 180 minutes travelling to and fro Expo for service each week. This is not to mention the occasional (I must add, very inconvenient and expensive) shift from Hall 1 to Hall 8, depending on the availability of the halls. You do not know how glad I am to hear that our new building will be in a central location! I’m happy we finally have a place we can call home for our entire congregation.
Each week, we see updates of the missions work that the church is doing and the help we provide to the community around us. I know that thousands are blessed because of the aid we have given. I myself have participated in some of the voluntary work organised by the church, so have many of my friends. Having been in CHC since my secondary school days, your transparency and accountability to the congregation is applaudable.
Building God a magnificient house is an awesome priviledge. Being able to touch more lives with a bigger worship location is even more so. You have never ceased to constantly remind us that people matter to God most.
Look forward to the next chapter in CHC with you!
Zhen
I am so amazed why people could argue on attendance figures here. Though I does not come from CHC, I don’t doubt the statistics that Pastor Kong gives and announces. I trust the figures.
Moreover, attendance number does not mean anything. Just becasue it is a Church with a huge crowd does not necessarily mean that it is good in God’s eyes – few enters the narrow gate, and many enters the broad gate.
I have no intention to criticize anybody or any church here. As there are many pros here, I would issue my opinion here which may give more insights to all of us here:
1)
“We need a facility that will be able to accommodate the congregations” [Kong Hee]
My suggestion is, would it be better to plant another church instead of enlarging the existing church? I believe that the original Jurong West Congregation has reached its economies of scale already. Being too large a congregation and further expands may only receive little marginal benefits.
Why must enlarge the congregation but not planting another church? I believe the leaders of CHC must think twice of their intentions, whether it is aggreesion, ambitions or really for God.
2)
“Why does the project cost S$310 million? – size/location/facilities…” [Kong Hee]
Again, if plant another church instead of building a bigger building, the total cost per person would be substantially decrease. The saved cost can offer more to mission field or the poor and needy.
3)
“It is not purely a place of worship. This property has a 12,000-seater auditorium, and many other meeting rooms and F&B outlets.” [Kong Hee]
“The facilities of the property and F&B outlets are open to the public daily. During the weekdays, the auditorium will be used from time-to-time as a venue for seminars, conferences, arts and cultural performances.” [Kong Hee]
There are already many places with meeting rooms and F&B outlets, why the leaders of CHC insist to build a new building instead of utilizing the existing buildings? If rental is expensive, wouldn’t the 310 billion buidling far more expensive? I believe in long run the cost between the two choice may not be significantly different. I suggest CHC leaders to offer the public the profits forecasts / Discounted Cash Flow Analysis on the two scenario to justify the choice, or else it would be subjected to questions.
4)
“We will finance the project from the free-will contributions of our members” [Kong Hee]
“It also allows CHC to move from its present expensive rental model to a more financially sustainable ownership model for the long term.” [Kong Hee]
What if the members contribute less than expected? CHC leaders must consider the worst case scenario – if the members only offer 50% of the amounts that the leaders expect, would it make CHC bankrupt? What would be the alternative way to finance?
5)
“With a facility to house the church’s growing congregation and multifaceted ministries, we can serve the needs of the community in an even greater way.” [Kong Hee]
A bigger church building does not necessarily mean it can help the poor more. A bigger congregation can mean each person has less personal contact and receive less care and love. The most important thing to help the poor is love, but not a bigger physical building. I can’t see a clear linkage between building a larger building with the building of better lives as you always mentioned.
6)
“Proximity and accessibility by public transportation is the key factor behind our decision to find another facility that is in the central district of Singapore.” [Kong Hee]
“The key consideration behind our choice of location is proximity and accessibility for our members.” [Kong Hee]
“This is an important consideration which we factored into our planning for the new facility. There is ample car parking space, and the roads surrounding the property are wide enough to ensure smooth traffic.” [Kong Hee]
I am sad on these statement. This is purely based on the thought of secular humanity, which I can noted many times in Pastor Kong’s thought or sermons. Such secular humanity was heavily criticized by Dr. Cho is his books and I hope Pastor Kong to note his mentor’s teaching. To me, athe key concern of any selection is whether God like it but no whether man like it.
Pastor Kong, if it is really God’s vision to you, in fact you no need to prove / justify your actions in such a way. I observed that you use this blog to justify many your actions or your wife actions. Though this may not be insuitable, I sense that deep down inside you may have a sense of insecurity that you always want to show other people that what you are doing is right. This is just my thinking for your reflection only.
Finally, hope that my comment could give all of you some insights.
Good luck Pastor Kong and CHC~ God bless~
His blog entry, while certainly shedding light on particular aspects of the building project, left many questions unanswered:
1) Pastor Kong said: “Whatever the case, I hope that we will share the same conviction as King David that the house ‘for the LORD must be exceedingly magnificent, famous and glorious throughout all the lands’ (1 Chr. 22:5).”
It is reasonable to argue that a centralised church building will do much good for City Harvest Church, but I hope that what pastor said above will not be used as justification for spending an extravagant amount on money on unneeded luxuries in our new church building.
By quoting 1 Chr 22:5, pastor seems to be invoking an Old Testament mindset where God literally dwelt in the Temple of Jerusalem and it was necessarily to therefore beautify it and adorn it with all sorts of precious materials. In the New Testament however, we see a shift away from the Temple and into the people.
The Church is no longer a building; it is the Body of Christ, made manifest in Christians. We are the church of the Living God, and He dwells in us. Should we therefore focus on constructing a magnificent building when what we should be doing is to build people? Are we stuck in an Old Covenant mindset of “building God a great house” when in fact God’s presence is no longer restricted to a physical temple?
I would challenge any believer to quote me a New Testament verse where Jesus would justify building a glorious building for the Kingdom. If Jesus isn’t placing much emphasis on a physical structure, why should we? Let us glorify God in our good deeds, rather than magnificent monument that will fade to dust in time.
2) In the blog post, Pastor Kong mentioned that our church attendance stands at 32,731 members. However, this figure is extremely vague. I would like to request that the church release a detailed breakdown of the figure detailing how the attendance is compiled, and where has the growth come from. How does the church define an “active member”?
Are inactive members still in the list, and therefore counted as attendance, or does the church really count the amount of seats that are filled each week? Which period of time does the church attendance take into account? It is a one-off figure taken from a particular month, or is it compiled over a few months?
It is unfortunate that there isn’t much transparency on this matter. I would suggest that such information be published on the church website such that all church members can be informed. If we have nothing to hide, I don’t see why we can’t have such data online.
3) Pastor mentioned that the best solution to contain our growth would be to construct a centralised church building. I am wondering if alternative solutions have been explored? For instance, would adopting a decentralised church model scattered all around Singapore work as a better model?
Has the church leadership actively weighed the cost and benefits of the different approaches before finally arising at a definite solution? What was the entire thought process behind this?
4) Pastor Kong mentioned that $310 million will be used to prepare the new building. I am wondering if a detailed breakdown of these expenses will be made available to church members who have contributed to the building fund? This is to allow church members to scrutinise the church building expenditure to ensure that their money has been spent wisely. It is only fair to church members that such information is made available, considering the amount of sacrifice they have made.
5) City Harvest Church is tax-exempt given that it is considered a charity under Singapore law. But with the new church building, would this status be under threat? We must consider the fact that the new building would have F&B tenants, which would actually make CHC a commercial entity. As such, would our earnings from rental to F&B tenant be tax-exempt? How does the church leadership plan to deal with the blurring of the lines between our church’s status as a charitable organisation and its increasingly commercial nature?
This brings us to a more pressing query, which nonetheless runs along the same lines. Given that our church has started several profit-making enterprises like Attributes and Xtron, what measures have been put in place to make sure that the funds from these commercial entities and the church do not mix? The danger is that we could be accused of using our status as a charity to gain an unfair advantage in our commercial ventures.
For instance, Attributes seems to be heavily dependent on the Bookstore ministry to run its operations. Should Attributes be paying these ministry workers instead, given that it is a profit-making enterprise? Is it even an ethical practice to use church members to run Attributes without getting paid?
The bottom line is this: What precautions have the church taken to ensure that there isn’t a conflict of interest between our religious nature and our commercial nature?
I have submitted the above list of questions as an email to one of the senior leaders in our church. I hope to have a response soon.
Dear Pastor,
It’s a great pleasure to experience this breakthrough and be a part of the history making.
We can see the fruits of your many years of pastoring and discipleship in the Kingdom. The firstlove for Jesus has grown even stronger, so are the passion and caring for the people & needy.
When we walk under an open heaven, the righteousness of God will fill the entire community and lift up a nation. The nation will be an envy of all other nations. The God of Heaven Himself will prosper us, therefore we His servants will arise and build.
We are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people. We now set our heart and soul to seek the Lord to arise and build the sanctuary of God.
As we manifest the divine nature in the marketplace, the Lord will bring in greater harvests from the latter rain. This bigger auditorium in Downtown Core area will house the enlarged congregation from the marketplace (Raffles Place / Shenton Way / City Hall / Orchard Road / Beach Road / Marina South, Centre & Bay areas) and beyond. Enlarge the tent and stretch out the curtains of His dwellings.
The SUN of righTEousness shall arise with healing in His wings. You are the light of the world. A CITY that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. The Lamb is its light. Truely the light is sweet, and it is pleasant for the eyes to behold the sun. The righteous will shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom. We will see in this City an even greater Harvest as the baton (from YFGC) is passed to you.
Hallelujah! Thank you.
Hi Terence,
I shall not requote you, but let me attempt to answer your questions point by point, but by no means do I represent CHC, but these are my opinions.
1. I think God is the same, yesterday-today-forever. There’s no differentiation between God’s character in the OT and NT. In fact, that’s a form of heresy.
What is true in the OT, is still true in the NT. God does dwell in His church, when people are gathered together. Read the New Testament, the occasions when the Holy Spirit was poured down, it always happens in the gathering of believers, where? In the church.
In Revelations, how are the buildings and new Jerusalem like? Are they plain buildings, made of bricks and stones, because according to you, God does not require that in the NT?
2. I think the keyword Pastor mentioned was – members. These presumably refer to members in the church, real people in real cell groups, and not just attendees. If we were to count attendees, on big days like Easter/Christmas, it would have well crossed 40-50k.
You can read the breakdown for yourself when they update the facts and stats on the website for the previous year.
I think to question it like as though the church owes you an answer is a very wrong attitude. Of course you can ask, I believe the church wants to share as much as possible. Its already I think the most transparent church around…
3. Hasn’t this been answered dozens of time before? A de-centralised church doesn’t mean more effectiveness. The resources, infrastructure and management needed is more complex than being in a centralised lcoation. The cost is not necessarily lower too. It has been explored and explained many times.
4. As with the $48m Jurong West building, you can expect a breakdown later on when more details can be released. In which project has the church not revealed the breakdown, from our humanitarian works to our annual budget?
5. Wrong. The church is not a charity, as it does not solicit or collect funds from the public, it is a religious organisation. Once again, I do not speak for the church, but you can read up yourself on the internet, there’re provisions for charities, IPCs and religious organisations to invest their funds as long as that is not their core business, but as a means to generate finance from investments to fund their core activities.
And as you know, Pastor Kong does not draw a salary and nobody benefits out of any investment activities done by the church, but investment profits are used to further the work of the church.
Therefore, I don’t think it risks any tax exempt status as this is lawful and nobody is benefitting from it on a personal basis.
I don’t think people serving in the bookstore ministry will want to be paid or expect to be paid as well. Attributes bookstore is a part of City Harvest Church and profits (if any at all) belong to the church, therefore they’re not serving a for-profit business but they’re serving the church’s ministry – just like any other.
If you think that way, then the ushers serving the offering should also be paid? It does not make sense. We are all doing a part in serving God.
melvinchen,
1) Based on your line of reasoning, why don’t we go sacrifice sheep to the altar? How about you building an altar in the void deck, and ordering a sheep from Malaysia? Why don’t you learn how to slay a sheep? The fact is this: Jesus came and set us free. Don’t you remember the story where the Temple curtains were ripped in half? what does that symbolise? The Focus of Christianity is never on the building, but on the People! I don’t buy the idea of “glorifying god” through building an extravagant building, full stop. In fact, I think it gives non-Christians a very wrong impression.
2) Even the breakdown on the church website has failed to answer my questions above. And by average, what do they mean? Mean, mode, or standard deviation?
Well, if we are so lax about expecting accountability from our leaders, then we are consigning CHC to doom. As church members, of course we have every right to want answers! The church is not build just on the leaders, but the members. So if we are a part of the family, should we be in the know too? Trust does not mean blind trust, you know.
3) I’m not saying a decentralised model is necessarily better. I’m just wondering what sort of deliberations have the leadership gone through.
4) I hope the breakdown will be detailed enough.
5) Correct me if I’m wrong here, but the Commissioner of Charities requested to check CHC’s financial statements in 2007. You can read about this article here: http://movies.sgforums.com/forums/10/topics/296725
If that’s the case, then shouldn’t we conclude that CHC is under the Charities Act? Otherwise, why would the Commissioner be so ka-po?
But Attributes IS a for-profit business, is it not? Ushering is different, because it is not a business, but a ministry.
Hi Terence,
1. Since you’re so strong against glorifying God with a building, why don’t you change church to one which fits your belief? No apologies, but City Harvest Church believes in glorifying God with everything, not just a building, but your lives, through everything. If you can’t accept it…the church will not change because of you.
2. Every organisation in Singapore is governed by laws and constituitions. And CHC is as transparent as it can be to ordinary members already. The little details are open to questions at the Annual General Meeting, which is attended by hundreds and governed by law.
3. The church has definitely deliberated over it and has explained that before many times. If you can’t trust…why don’t you find another church you can trust, instead of demanding it like its your right to know?
4. How detailed is detailed enough?
5. All charities, IPCs and religious organisations come under the Charities Act/Commissioner of Charities, but there’re distinctions between them. You can read about it yourself.
Attributes is a for-profit if you view it from the business sense, but the crucial thing is, where are the profits directed? It is part of the church and the profits go to the church. Therefore nobody is beneffiting from it, how then how can the church pay volunteers who are helping in this ministry?
typo ‘our lives’ instead of ‘your lives’
Wow, telling people who don’t agree with you to get the hell out and go somewhere else. How nice. Now I know how much some members of the church respect diversity.
I think its pointless debating with you. You are overly concerned with debating the church to the point where you aren’t even attempting to understand where I’m coming from. Goodbye.
Sorry, I mean “defending the church”
Just curious.
Is your local church (CHC) going to build a much bigger building when your member grows up to another 5-fold or 10-fold in size?
I suppose you need to build many mega buildings to accommodate the huge congregation in the future.
Many of the local churches including CHC build the church based on traditional mindset/methodology practiced by Roman Catholism where believers were congregated in a limited and confined space. It’s simply a form of worship. This may probably work very well in Singapore, which is a very small country geographically, but the Spirit of God is dynamic and He has His fresh and creative way of reaching out to the people beyond the 4-wall of the building, to people who will never be reached by introducing them to the local congregation worship setting.
Just a thought. :) :)
Hi terrencelee
After reading your comments, I would like to share with you what I think this whole project is about:
IMHO,
Pst Kong is the Senior Pastor and the Founder of the church. Yes, I understand he is not without flaws. However, the way you post seems to discredit his leadership (not forgetting the rest of the committees involved in the projection and planning for the church as a growing congregation), a role which he has been in for the last 21 years. You seem to want to suggest and scrutinse the facts presented. Facts are gathered from reports from a systematic database. I think the real issue here is not the facts, but it seems to be your trust in the leadership.
‘So lax in our accountability with the leaders?’ Who has appointed you as the watchdog of the ministry? God? What kind of accountability can we expect from you on your comments and statements?
There can be no relationship if there is no trust. It seems to be so even though you write as a member of the church. I think in the last 21 years as a ministry, the most prized asset of the church leadership is not its ability to lead, but its integrity. You mentioned about a right to know? As a fellow member, can I have a right to know why are you so adamant in your post? To the point of being interrogative? :) The church is a spiritual ministry. Pls do not try to ’secularise’ it by imposing your humanistic views on what church growth should be.
In choosing a church to belong (a personal choice) , I think the important is whether you are able to grow in your spiritual walk with God and menaingful relationships that you can build. At the end of the day, the vision of the church belongs to all of us, and it’s first given to our senior pastor. We either love the vision or we hate the vision. This is followed by the choice of moving together as a people, or choosing not to. There is no middle ground.
I find it interesting to note that you are splitting hair in issues you’ve mentioned. Where would you like this discussion to lead to? I would like to end by saying I respect your stand, and I hope you respect the stand of most members here posting – in celebratory mood. We can always discuss this more in church, but this blog is not the place for it.
Its one thing to be diverse, different or disagree. Its another thing to be against.
The building is not just an extravagant structure of worship just to glorify God, it serves a practical purpose of housing the facilities of the church and our members and gives room for growth, though YES, we want to glorify God with a great building – that will not change.
If you can’t agree, nobody is forcing you to… its your freewill.
Oh yes, I certainly do see clearly where you’re coming from….
Dear Sola Fide,
Concerning your questions,
about planting another church,
The purpose of building a bigger facility is to house the entire congreation in one location. This new hall allows the entire congregation to unite in worship in one location. Regarding your concerns about the ambitions and intentions of the church, we are merely combining our Jurong West and Expo services; the congregation is already present in the first place.
I feel that any Church congregation which loves God and loves people automatically grows. :)
With regards to renting, in the long run, it doesn’t prove to be economical as rental rates in Singapore are exorbitant. Renting multiple rooms in various locations would be a logistical nightmare. Imagine the restrictions you would face if you had to move from one rented property to another for the rest of of your life. Moreover, having our own church building would give us more space and flexibility, as to my understanding, many of the function rooms for rent do not allow religious activities to be held in them.
As for the consideration about traffic and surrondings.. With such a big congregation, I think it is only right that we be friendly and considerate neighbours.Having a central location would be good to reach out. Even when Jesus first reached out to peter, james and john.. He stepped into their boat, into their world. :)
Big churches does not mean no personal touch.. If you do not know yet, here in CHC we believe the church must grow bigger and ’smaller’ at the same time.. smaller whereby we have strong cell group fellowships and i assure you, these fellowships are very enjoyable and personal. :)
Just my 2 cents worth! :)
Hi Sola Fide
these are my answers based on my opinions ya..
1) We have been planting churches all around Asia. We have total of 60,000 who are CHC affliates already. =)
When CHC moved from the older premise to JW, there was a great increase into the church.
Same for us, when we move to our new building, there will surely be an increase in the church.
Of course, we are not concern about numbers. but we are SERIOUS about changing/transforming lives of people in this city.
That is why we need to bigger facility to accomodate the congregations.
For Jerusalem, Antioch & Ephesian churches, their congregation is huge too. does it mean they were being ambitious? O_O
2) We are planting church at the same time as building a bigger building. how’s that! =)
3) In the long run, i really believe getting a building for the church will save alot of money.
For example, in our lives, it is better to BUY a house to stay instead of renting & moving from one place to another. right?
Cause I’ve gone through that before. Moving to 3 different places in 3 years AINT fun. = )
4) We are believing and trusting that God will provide. If God has already provided us a land, He will provide the finances. Amen! =)
5) CHC is a BIG and SMALL spiritual family at the same time. Why? Because we have the cellgroup system that will keeps the members close. =)
6) Seriously, why are you so concern about the decisions that CHC has made? I believe that the leaders of the church have considered many of the factors that ALL of us has thought of.
Do not worry about Pst Kong, he can take care of himself. maybe you should take care of yourself too. =)
God bless~
Hi Terence Lee
With all due respect of your queries…
But why do you really doubt the leadership of 32,000 members?
Like what i’ve told Sola Fide, I believe the leadership has planned thoroughly about moving to the new building.
I dunno about you, but for me, I trust them alot!
Simply because the pioneers have started from 20 members to 32,000 locally, 60,000 internationally.
Simply because the church has been through rain or shine for 20 years and counting..
And you and I has not experienced or started anything like that. =)
If it’s in the will of God that CHC has a land, what can you say about it? What can the media/other people say?
The fact is NOTHING can stop the the movement of God.
So why not just be with us, on the journey to adventure, the journey to the promise land! =)
I really cant wait to see our new church building that is in the marketplace, for the marketplace, to penetrate the marketplace.
Dear Terence,
As I read your post, I really feel sorry for you. It seems like you are in a church that you really don’t enjoy and trust. I do not think that Melvin is asking you to leave the church, but more to the fact that if you really can’t trust the leadership of CHC, you should look for a church where you can trust so that you can grow spiritually in the things of God.
Like what danieljx implied, if there is no trust, there can be no meaningful relationship, and without healthy reltaionship, it is impossible to grow in our christian walk.
Amos 3:3 tells us “Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?” If you really find it hard to agree with the vision of CHC, you would find it impossible to journey with CHC in our calling from God.
In my opinion, I personally felt CHC and its leadership has been very transparent in the ways we operate. If you have certain specific concerns, you should talk personally to your CGL or your pastor. Of course we should not follow blindly and we should voice out our concerns, but the attitude by which we inquire is very important. I think this is the area you can reflect upon.
God bless …
TKH
Melvin Chen,
wow now you are accusing me of being ‘against’ the church. So are you also implying I’m with Satan too?
Guitarwu,
so what if he is a leader of 32,000 members. Do we give him special favour? Past records are no guarantee of future success, I’m sure you’re aware.
Even people in the Will of God err at times.
Honestly, isn’t it better for us to clean up our own house rather than wait for outsiders to do it for us? Do we want to be complacent and expect everything to fall into place?
Using the Will of God to shut people up is just arrogant. People have been using the Will of God to do evil deeds for ages.
And if there is anything that can stop the will of god, it would be ourselves. So best to be vigilant and not assume things.
TKH_original,
I don’t need you to feel sorry for me. It is quite condescending, to be honest.
And yes, I am meeting a pastor to discuss this, thank you very much.
And by the way TKH, a loving relationship is build on accountability. Husband accountable to wife and vice versa. Nothing wrong with asking for more accountability, considering that not everyone is as privileged as you to meet Pastor Kong personally?
Dear Sola Fide,
Thank you for your concerns. As a memberof CHC, let me attempt to reply you from my perspectives.
1) You suggested planting another congregation. I personally think that this model has its disadvantages. If the church keeps on growing, the approach should be getting a few larger premises than many small premises. The economy of scale in the long run, (assuming CHC keeps growing) may be more beneficial.
2) I personally find planting another church in Singapore quite a “funny” concept. There are already more than 500 churches in this small piece of land, and there is no lack of churches in the neighbourhood. People come to CHC because of the spiritual atmoshpere they experienced in this united congregation. As for the area of mission works, I think we are way ahead of many churches both in finances and sending manpower. With or without the new buiilding, CHC’s commitment to missions has been increasing steadily over the years.
3) I think by law, CHC is not required to account to the general public concerning our finances as the money does not come from the public. We are of course accountable to the Commissioner of Charities, which has no problem in the way CHC manages its funds, especially after a thorough check in 2007/2008 since the Renci saga.
4) Thank you for your concerns about the expected contributions of CHC members. Even though the finances come from the free will giving of members, I believe the leadership’s trust is not in the members, but in God who provides.
5) You are right to say that a larger church building does not necessarily mean more poor will be helped. However I would suggest you can check the track records of CHC to verify for yourself … have we been helping more poor.
6) I don’t think there is anything wrong or secular to consider the members’ welfare in the building project. It is simply common sense to me to plan with that consideration in mind. You mentioned about Dr. Cho. Maybe you can check out how many properties Yoido Full Gospel had in the CBD areas before you make that comment?
God bless …
TKH
Dear Terence,
I do not know how long you have been in CHC, or if you are in CHC. For me, CHC is a spiritual family and we enjoy the friendships and relationships. I feel sorry for you in a sense that you don’t seem to experience that in CHC. (I maybe wrong though …)
A loving relationship is first built on trust, not accountability first, even though accountability is important. When I was a kid growing up in my father’s house, I never questioned him how he run the family, because I trust him. Yes, certainly he made mistakes as a earthly father, but that trust is definitely not build purely on accountability.
I am glad that you are talking to a pastor, hopefully he can clarify your concerns. However in the event you can’t agree after the clarification, I seriously suggest you should consider your involvement in CHC, as one can only really get committed on the basisi of trust.
Btw, I am not as “privileged” as you supposed … : ) I wish I am though … haha
TKH
TKH,
wah, if even you don’t have access to Pastor Kong, then what hope for the rest of us lol.
Well if i am meeting a pastor of CHC, then surely i must be from CHC?
We need both trust and accountability la. No use talking about what’s “first”. My point is that if a church member feels in anyway that there can be more accountability in any area, he or she definitely has a right to at least raise it with the leaders.
I think trust and disagreement are not mutually exclusion. There is no false dichotomy. One can trust, and yet still disagree. The question is whether my disagreements are so overwhelming that it is against my conscience to be involved with CHC.
This stadium was earnestly prayed into existance as a gift from God to CHC about the time when Dayan was prayed into conception. Nobody told Pastor Ulf about it, yet he prophesied it to the congregation during his conference a few years ago, after which the collection started – it was 10,000 seats but God gave CHC 12,000 seater; above all that was asked, Hallelujah.
When the collection first started, the ball-park figure was $100,000,000 with no clue as to where the land would be – except Downtown . People from the poorer Southern Russian states heard (many that would not get a chance to savor the seats when it is completed) pooled together thousands of US dollars as a love gift to CHC, for God’s will to be accomplished. In a sense, they had more faith than us.
Please be greatful that the gift and prophesy from God is coming to pass. For those who do not want to give, don’t give – God is not a beggar. Those who are in flow with the prophesy, give cheerfully. It is not only about our own backsides warming those seats but more for the unchurch to come and know God. It would not be practical for Pastor Kong to be preaching 14 services every weekend in Jurong West’s 2500-seater, even if we chain him up at the pulpit and force him to – it would be murder.
When we start getting calculative , argutative and use our own reasoning to speculate – why did You God gave us this stadium ??? we totally miss the heartbeat and generosity of God and His compassion and love for the lost.
If you have to tolerate, time for you to go somewhere where you can celebrate.
Dear Terence,
Hahaha … I am but a mere mortal, so there is hope for all of us … : )
Firstly, I think our pastors met up regularly with people who are not members of CHC, that’s why it is possible for you not being a member of CHC.
I agree that trust and disagreement is not mutually exclusive, but I think trust and mistrust/ distrust is definitely mutually exclusive. Whether a person is in disgreement or mistrust (distrust), I’m sure the reader will know from the attitude and the tone of the question. So once again, I shall leave that to the conclusion of the reader.
As for trust and accountability, I think the order is important. If there is no trust, accountability is meaningless. For e.g. a husband may be very accountable to the wife in his schedule, but if the wife does not trust the husband, no amount of accountability will make sense. If we are talking about the context of a family, that trust must precedes accountability.
God bless …
TKH
hi all,
if u have no respectable things to mention abt my pastor, then dont…if u r in doubt, raise it to someone in leadership in private n get your questions answer…dont fart around and question my pastor n his integrity.
anyway this building is a family affair…if u dont like it…too bad n move on.
Dear Pastor Kong,
Thank you so much for all your have done for us. Thanks for the messages from God! Thanks for so inspiring! Thanks for caring and loving. I love you. we are so blessed to have you such a great Pastor. :)
Hi Terence Lee,
Yes, even people in the will of God err at times.
I guess you are just concerned about CHC having a new building.
But please do not worry, the church is in good hands.
Maybe if you really want to thoroughly make sure nothing is gonna go wrong, you might want to try to be with the leadership too?
=)
Dear Pastor,
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain the reasons and motivations behind CHC’s effort in acquiring a piece of land in the central area for the new building. Ever since the announcement of the initial news, I have been very excited about this miracle. As a church, we have been believing God for a new building so that more lives can be touched by the love of God. Truly it is not about building buildings, but it is really about building lives. I strongly believe this new building will become a blessing to Singapore and even to the whole Asia. May God continously bless CHC and Pastor!
Blessings,
David
Hi Terence Lee,
I don’t think any of us has a problem with the fact that you have questions that you want answers to. I’m sure if you approached the leadership, they would be willing to give answers to the best of their knowledge.
What is conspicuous to many of us here is your interrogative attitude and approach in raising these questions to someone who you call your spiritual father (well, supposedly so since you mentioned that you are a member of CHC though I know that doesn’t always prove to be true). Your questioning is to the extent of presenting a dubious attitude and tone BEHIND your questions.
It may be a simple EQ issue of yours, or it may be something more complex than that – which we do not know of. Maybe you would like to share with us, the way which you use to talk to your loved ones? Do you interrogate and speak to your mum or dad in such tone as though you are demanding answers from them & that they OWE you the answers? If they have erred, would you criticize them harshly? I don’t know about you but I definitely wouldn’t because I love my parents and no matter how much mistakes they make, I will still love them.
Of course, this doesn’t mean that “oh! love covers all”…we still have to help each other improve and grow. And I understand that you have that intention and you do it in your own way. But I am wondering if you should learn to mix your intentions with a bit of respect and love?
As you should know from now, I’m not here to debate what is truth or what is right pertaining to the context of the building project. Rather, I hope you can look at yourself in terms of your attitude towards someone who is more senior than you in every aspect. Not just Pastor Kong, but it’s always good to adopt a humble attitude even when raising questions or doubts.
hi everyone, i’m tkh.
cheers.
thanks pastor for posting this thread to answer some of the FAQs that people may have abt our new church building… i’m very excited abt this new phase in our church history… i’m sure God will take us all up to a higher level with the new building in the central area…
And pastor, your semon today on the Holy Spirit is so inspiring… i’m sure all of us that have heard your semon will have a renewed passion for God as we embark on this new phase in CHC.
Looking forward to next week….
I think that this annoucement is a great one, something that CHC members and non CHC members alike will approach with positivity and joy. This is indeed something that CHC has been waiting for for a long, long time.
To those who have brought forth questions, I feel, in my own opinion, that many questions are rather redundant and repetitive. I do not mean to be offensive, but Pastor has already addressed the whys, hows, when of this building project.
Perhaps certain things he does not bring up cos they are simply self-explanatory.
As to why Pastor and CHC does not opt for solutions such as – building many small churches, building somewhere else etc etc.
Maybe it is simply not what God has spoken to them about?
Just some food for thought.
As to why convenience and location is a consideration? well definitely that is secondary to God’s calling. But, God’s word has been to be in the central location, and it has been given to us, and of course it is a convenient location.
What’s wrong with this? (:
To Terence,
Love is the foundation of trust.
I trust that your questions, as a proclaimed ‘member’ were birthed out of love, but I am not sure.
Only when there is mutual commitment in a relationship of trust then can we talk about accountability.
I wonder how have you committed to CHC as a ‘member’ to invoke concepts like ‘trust’ and ‘accountability’ so liberally and unabashedly.
While your call for checks and balances are not invalid in any organisation, it would be naïve, and to some even puerile, to assume that any individual with a blog and reasonable critical writing faculty can perform the role simply by making noise and asking cynical questions.
There is a system of accountability and transparency in CHC in place. And it has satisfied the very robust examination by the Commissioner of Charities, in the report that you cited.
I do not pretend to imagine that you or I can do a better job than them. If you differ, do consider applying for a position there after your graduation given your passion and skills.
Nonetheless, I am happy to hear that a meeting has been set up for you and your pastor. I believe it is your request and not a response to your post here.
Just a thought, why did you not wait after the meeting, since it has been arranged, when your questions could have been reasonably answered before posting them up on the blog?
Your motivation is called to the question here.
Putting up a 310 million church building is not an impulsive project but one that has been meticulously prepared for over the years.
Is it not possible at all that the church management board has considered the various options, such as decentralization and has found the option wanting? They are no fools.
While some may disagree with the ideology of putting up the best possible church building as a expression of honour and worship towards God, this church has held on to that as part of its belief system over the years.
You could disagree but CHC simply cannot see itself raising funds to put up a cheap shantytown-type, average, mundane, mediocre, unimpressive, unremarkable church building and be proud of it. Neither can I.
The same issues you raised were old and tired ones expressed by the critics in the 90s when CHC was putting up Jurong West St 91.
I believe the same answers will be reiterated.
Ultimately, members vote with their feet. Those who subscribed to it stayed on and the few who dissented left.
Overall, the church has doubled in size and has kept on growing till today.
Case in point.
To Sola Fide,
To put the members’ welfare as priority is not secular humanism.
Just as using common sense as a basis for everyday decision is not secular humanistic.
The divine revelatory decision making model you seem to advocate, as opposed to secular humanism, could possibly be found in the fact that CHC has rejected the decentralization model but has chosen to ‘build a strong local church’ (note the tense) by keeping the church intact
But then you question the decision, with arguably, by your own definition and application, a rather secular humanistic proposal of decentralization. The irony cannot be missed.
Ultimately, as in all your previous posts, you wish to offer your two-cents.
It is appreciated for what it is worth.
Thank you.
Wow Philospher, you said it best, nobody could explain it better.
Anyway, we’re extremely excited and can’t wait for it ! 6 days away!
Wow, having read all the comments.. I am even more proud of CHC.
Having been in this church for about 8 years now, I have not regretted one bit. Pastor Kong has proven himself to be transparent and trustworthy. More than anything, he has encouraged us to be thinking believers. I really can see that from the responses the CHC members are inputing here to the critics. Answers that are thinking, sensible, and full of faith. Kudos to melvinchen, tkh, philosopher, guitarwu, ahhuat, cal, leila just to name a few!
I am not as privileged to personally work close with Pastor Kong. But just being a regular member, I see him leading the church with great care and foresight. His leadership gave me the opportunity not only to serve in an amazing capacity, it built me up to have a high level of discipline in the Word and my relationship with God. Because of such leadership, I have grown tremendously in my walk with God and with men, more than what I can express here. And because of all this, I am grateful to the church and trust Pastor Kong that when he leads us, he knows what he is doing.
I was not won over by any charismatic personality or amazing preaching or fun praise and worship, I was won over because I have seen the love of God and the love for God in this church. Even when I hear detractors say nasty things, I am not wavered because their testimonies can’t even match up to what I have experienced in this church.
Therefore I will run with any vision this church has, and support it and give it my 110%. I have not regretted for the past 8 years, and I know I won’t in the future. :)
Go CHC!
To all,
It is discouraging to see that people have chosen to case aspersions to my integrity and motivation.
In case anyone is interested to know, I am a CHCer of seven years. I served in choir for a few years, after which I moved on and devoted my life to cell group ministry. Of late, I have come to question my own stay in CHC, and I am still deliberating if this place will be my home for long haul.
It is unfortunate that those who dare to question have been struck down; those think different are seen as causing trouble. It is no wonder that we Christians are often stereotyped as blind sheep.
I comment not out of ulterior motive, but merely to raise awareness. I was prepared to think differently about my fellow CHC brethren, that perhaps my fellow we are enlightened people who can tolerate diversity of opinion and belief.
I was about to believe that CHC is a place where we can question openly without being seen as trying to undermine the church.
Unfortunately, I am utterly wrong; your comments here have been very telling. I do not see the need to defend myself anymore. I know why I write and blog, and that is something between me and god.
I am truly, utterly, disappointed.
Hi terence..
I’m really sorry about what you had to go through. I don’t know exactly what happened that caused you to lose hope and faith, but can I just encourage you to keep believing?
If you are meeting one of the pastors, I think it is really our church’s way of giving you the recognition and voice. I don’t even have that privilege of one-on-one meeting with pastor, so I’m envious of you. :)
Having walked through with the church of many years.. I’m sure you also know we’re united and passionate about our vision. Many people in this thread has responded to you I believe from their tone, not out of condemnation, but more of one of defending the people and church they love. I’m sure you will do so the same if you still had the same faith you used to have :)
May God bless you and keep you.. :) I pray you will find a place you can call home, too :)
Hi TKH_original,
Thanks for your reply. I can see your points.
In fact I never have doubt that CHC spent a lot of money helping the poor and needy, and that CHC shall comit to give more in future.
My concern is whether it is necessary to have a bigger building in order to help more poor people, and the cost/benefit consideration that the church have (if any). I doubt if the money have alternative use which can help the poor and needy more. For example, building schools, hospitals, etc. Certainly the house of God is important, but I am not sure is that really worth to spend such a lot on the building. The dinigty of God is manifested in the heart of His children, rather than in the physical building.
Even if CHC is not to disclose publicly its financial conditions, I believe it would be wise to do so though legally it is not required. The public would concern what analysis CHC has made in order to determine to buy the building rather than rent it or etc. To be honest without such analysis no one can sure to say it is better to buy than rent.
Certainly we should trust the God who provide. However, this does not mean we don’t need to consider the worst case scenario. For details please see Luke 14:28-30.
Dr Cho’s case is not the same as CHC’s current situation. Yes, Yoido Full Gospel Church owns a lot of property, and this is not what I am concern on. But the decision process that Dr Cho made and Pastor Kong made (as far as I understood from his blog and message) are different. Yes, considering people’s need is good, but this should not be the most key driving factors in making such an important decision in the Kingdom of God…
Thanks.
To Philosopher on February 28th, 2010 9:56 pm
Cool off. I have apologize to Pastor Kong for my comments in earlier blog articale both in email and in the comments in that article.
If you repeat what I have apologize, does this mean that you (or some other people here) does not accept my apology and forgive me?
I have stated it clearly that I am not criticizing anybody or any church. I am just giving some insights here, maybe it is not popular. You may agree or disagree on this, and reply me based on Holy Spirit anointed words. But please don’t use harsh words…
God bless……………..
To Sola Fide,
I am cool.
I have merely pointed out the self-contradictory nature of your opinion expressed here in its inherent logical incongruity, as evident in some of your previous posts, and thereby its corresponding value as an ‘insight’.
I would appreciate a substantiation of your accusation on my use of ‘harsh words’ against you.
Thank you.
Hi Terence
I believe many people over here are happy that you are sharing a different opinion about the way things are. This is why we are also sharing our point of view about your queries.
Of course if you want to find the right, definite answers, you’ve gotta ask the pastors themselves. I believe they will be glad to help you in any way.
Our pastors are all easily contacted via facebook & twitter.
Hope that you will be able to find answers that will satisfy your queries. =)
Hi Terence,
I think it is very far-fetched to say ‘those who dare to question are struck down’. The issue here is not about the questioning, but in what manner and place are you doing it.
If anyone wanted to strike you down or silence you, the moderators could have just deleted your post and remove your opportunity to speak.
However, it is your choice to question cynically with implied loaded questions that makes many wonder what’s your motive.
Your article elsewhere to rally others to question and inquire makes one wonder even more…what is your agenda? What’s the driving force behind what you’re doing?
Please don’t behave like a failed politician, nobody is striking you down, you’re just not making sense.
Like what Philosopher said…”Ultimately, members vote with their feet. Those who subscribed to it stayed on and the few who dissented left. ”
It is up to everyone’s freewill whether they believe the vision that is revealed. If you do not have faith in the vision, it is best that you do not take part in it, rather than to regret and be upset later.
Hi Terence Lee,
Indeed, nobody is striking anybody down…if you see people as striking you down with their comments, then wouldn’t the reverse be only fair and true – that you are also seen as striking others down with your comments and that’s why people are “defending themselves”?
I believe that most of the people here including myself can understand where you are coming from. That we should have discernment and wisdom even as members of a church, and not take in everything blindly. But there is always a balance that should be maintained in a family type of relationship, which we are talking about here coz we see ourselves as a spiritual family of a church. The Bible mentions that we should be wise as serpent BUT also instructs us to keep respect for authority. This balance should always be kept in mind when we act.
It is perfectly fine to have questions and to seek clarifications. You are right that everybody has the right to do so. But while we KNOW we have the right to question everything, it is not the first thing that comes to mind immediately, because we first attempt to TRUST before we question. I believe this is part of basic respect for any human being.
In any case, I hope you will manage to get your doubts clarified since you will be meeting with pastor.
To complete my post, at the end of the day, I believe you have your line of reasoning and what you perceive as good for the church. ie. to raise valid questions, to raise awareness of any parts that seems dubious or vague in the information disseminated by the church leadership.
However, I believe the betterment & progress of the church will not happen just based on discernment and raising questions alone. Yes, that is important part of being a thinking individual, but it is not the key which drives the church to success nor is it something which impresses God the most. For who can be more discerning than God Himself? Rather, it is the thinness of our hearts toward God and His people. In short, our moldability. Which often has to do with submitting ourselves to a spiritual authority which I understand, is the dilemma for you.
That’s all. God bless.
Hi Pst,
Thank you for sharing! Really excited to Arise and Build with the entire church once again!
And to Terence,
i agree with jinglebelle9. Please don’t lose hope and faith. Since you’re meeting a pastor, I believe he will hear you out. It is not wrong to raise questions, or think different from the norm. But ultimately, it is important that we get these questions answered, before we sink into our own doubts and develop distrust towards our leadeship.
Personally, i’ve been in CHC for 11 years. I started off not being able to agree with everything that the church embarks on. But over time, having seen how Pst Kong and the leaders in my life run this church, i learn to trust the leadership. Not because i will be shoot down if i don’t, but because they’ve proven themselves trustworthy and sincere.
To me, what is most important is to be in a church family that you are comfortable with, and being willingly lead by leaders whom you can trust. In every organization, political party, church, etc, unity is one of the most crucial thing. I believe those who replied you just wanted to protect the unity of the church.
Like what the bible teaches us, and what Pst Kong often says, “a place of agreement is a place of power”. If we are for Pst Kong, and for CHC, let’s unite our hearts and run after the same vision. If CHC’s leadership have been doing the wrong things, i believe the church would have ‘closed-shop’ (like what TKH_original said) long time ago.
Lastly, I hope that you will find back your passion for Jesus, and start serving Him again. May the experiences and encounters you had with God the last 7 years sustain you, and remind you that God values you a lot. I think it’s not worth giving up our faith for anything else.
God bless..
I’m sure to cry when i find out how many times bigger the new land in the central district will be or see the completed Stadium structure, as i was brought up in a traditional Church background where traditional culture and mindsets are much stronger than the modern ones. Risk taking is not very well encouraged and most of the members there are held down by many leaders who don’t embrace fruitful progress like you. They condemn the ministry of creativity, progress and plentiful harvest time fruitfulness. Needless to say, abused their authority, many times and taught their congreagation things that are contrary to the Word of God. Thanks a ton, to the almighty God who is using you powerfully to reach out to the lost and restoring them to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Thanks alot, Kong Hee, that you have remained bold and steadfast in obedience to the Word of the amazing Son of Righteousness, Yesu Christos, who is an amazing representation of His Father, Yahweh! Praise Adonai!(“,)
With regards, to my last message, i will act on your advice and press on ahead with Arise & Build 2010 and ahead. I have decided to start giving more than what i have been giving on sundays at Church, this coming weekend. I am gonna breakfree in Jesus Christ, from my trational baggage to glorify God, more than i used to. Thanks alot once again, Rev. KongHee! May the abundant grace be on everyone of my brothers and sisters-in-Christ Jesus, till eternity as you trust in Him and glorify Him in all that you do! Amen! Alleluia!;)
been around in CHC since the final days of Westin, I have been able to observe quite a bit and i must say… i am happy with, and thankful for what Pastor Kong has been doing.
personally, i am quite sure that there are checks and balances in place, despite suggestions that such measures are lacking/ lax. To my knowledge, there is a Board of Directors to which the pastoral team is accountable to. I remember that, prior to major decisions, AGMs,EOGMs were held and the committed members of the church, the Executive members, would be involved in the decision process of such matters, attendance being strongly encouraged.
Pertaining to the ‘building’ matter, it is, to me, a necessity that it be built, and magnificently done. having our own building means greater autonomy and freedom of access to facility when there is need to conduct meetings etc. From what i could recall, there is also a potential of generating income by renting the hall to other organizations for their events. Not forgetting that the F&B facilities would help offset the running/ maintenance costs for the building.
Many may not know, the JW building has been a testimonial to many visitors of the goodness of GOD. In many countries, the church congregation dwindled and in some cases, even closed down the church.
To these visitors, JW building is a physical representation of the miracle that GOD had done for us: while the church was about 3,000 strong with 75% youth, we got a land and built such a magnificent church, debt-free… (paraphrased) Paul said: show me your faith, and i will show you my faith by my works. The JW building is a testimony that cannot be denied, the CHC people, the vibrant worship service, an experience, put these together, it is an encouragement to these people, reminding them that GOD is real and far more importantly, giving them a very real reason to believe that, if GOD can do it for City Harvest, GOD can do it for them. I have personally ushered some of these visitors round the JW building and it is a blessing to me, knowing that their faith had been strengthened and they left stronger than they came.
There are some that i was privileged to usher at both JW and Expo. While JW is a beautiful monument that testify towards the goodness of GOD, it was the Expo service that gave them an experiential vision of “what their church could become”. Some of them told me that they never seen so many people in a church before and are encouraged to believe that the same could happen in their homeland too.
Hence, I will not expect any less for the new building.
As far as finance management is concern, my personal stand is this: I will leave it to the leadership. knowing that these men are accountable to the Board of Directors and ultimately to GOD, and that there is a accounting firm overseeing and auditing the books, I’m not going to be worried over such matters. I have got other things to be concerned with… to be faithful in what GOD has given to me.
cheers!
I am glad that City Harvest is having a big new building. In a very practical sense, this will enable CHC to house more members. In a spiritual sense, the new building will show the glory of God.
Where ever the new building is, I hope it is right smack in the middle of the marketplace, preferably right next to one of the new casinos. After all, it is not the healthy that need doctors but the sick. I hope everyone will see Christians every where and start to wonder about God and be open to learn about Jesus. This new building is exciting and will surely bring in new believers and will strengthen the body of Christ to glorify God
After all, that is what it is really all about! Serving God and Serving People.
Dr T.
What a great and awesome vision so clearly articulated!
Wow. Saw this link from a blog link my friend sent:
http://bit.ly/celk8X
12,000 Seater, Downtown Central South, CBD, F&B, Many meeting rooms.
Really looks like a sneak preview or something!!
Nice thought…
This place is not bad too… somewhere we are familiar with. Central South. Ample carparks. Nice water features all around with F&B outlets. Many rooms, 12, 000 seater.
http://tinyurl.com/yk8u26q
Cheers!
Wow…the speculations have started! :)
This place is nice too… probable…Plus, it’s new!
This spanking new place seems to fit the description too…NICE!
http://grab.by/2LBC
I quote the following information
“Sited in the new central business district, with superb road and mass transit connection to the rest of Singapore, it will have a massive expo hall capable of hosting exhibitions with up to 2,000 booths; a convention centre with 250 reconfigurable meeting rooms capable of holding up to a total of 45,000 delegates; and an 8,000-square-metre ballroom that can handle banquets for up to 6,600 people, or 7,000 people for a stage performance, or 11,000 seated for auditorium-style lectures or presentations.”
;)
Hi all,
Just to join in the ‘bandwagon’ and to chip in my view. Anyone remember Marina South? Superbowl? BBQ Steamboat Buffet? Games Arcade?
The place is now defunct…. seems like a real possibility to build ANYTHING with the space.
http://tinyurl.com/yhlf9vv
This place fits the said ‘criteria’:
- Central South
- 12,000 seater possibility
- Accessible with public transport
- Ample carpark space
- F&B outlets
Any other suggestions?
Hi waraku
not bad… read up on your ‘proposed’ area.
Does seem to have a lot of activity going on there. Ideal place too.
http://grab.by/2LEA
Cheers!
haha, it gets exciting…
Wow.. central south! it could be anywhere man! but for me.. anywhere central is fine with me! I think i’ll just wait for the news to be announced :)
Haha wow, so many speculations. Wherever it is, I am excited not having to travel long distances to our Jurong West or Expo church for our weekend services! F&B outlets with enough seats.. being able to hang out to pray or have bible study or even just study for my exams during the week.. How cool is that! Having the building someone central can also invite even more people who might be deterred by the distance.. Can’t wait to invite all my friends!
God is good for giving us the land! I can’t wait to know so I can go and visit the plot already! :) :) 4 more days!
I can identify with TerrenceLee experience. I also was a cgl but I decided to step down after serving for 3 years because I got issue with my ZS. And today, I silently live with the judgment pass on me that I cannot flow even though the real reason I left is because I see for myself that it is about building people but numbers. To the people in leadership, it is about how much we give to the building fund and attendance growth rate. Every ZS have a target to meet, and when the giving is not up to expectation, they will pressure the leaders to talk to the member. The building fund report is not confidential and we all know how much everyone in the group is giving. Tuesday leaders meeting is extremely stressful because we will be questioned one by one like why we drop attendance, why tithing percent so low and why this thing not meet target. We will be scolded even though our member really cannot make it and why we never challenge or strongly encourage them to come. We even have to meet target to sign up SOT. I do not want to put this type of pressure on my members. Sometimes we even have to attend multiple service to support because the hall cannot look too empty and if we cannot go we will have to answer why. It is hard serving God when it is not about the lives of people but meeting their targets.
At the end of the day, they are just after numbers and attendance. Everything about them is attendance and weekly growth. There were times when the year is ending, just to make up the numbers to see a good growth rate, we will be asked to check back our attendance again to try and find or remember people that we did not count or did not attend service or cg but we have given bible study or meet up (a.k.a visitation). Then we just add them to make the number look good for the year end report. If you question them, they will snap at you why challenge their authority and be marked. Then later be counseled until you apologize. Totally not open for feedback.
Also, some of the most aggressive defenders here are ZSs or CGLs. Can they honestly acknowledge that this is happening? But I still stay in CHC because of it’s PnW and family and friends I have. To me it does not matter anymore because I finally learn that it is between me and God. I believe there are many leaders who are like me but they just prefer to keep quiet about the suffering.
Do CHC need a stadium for building people life? I just hold on to Hosea 6:6. It’s the old testament but i think it will apply because the reason to build this stadium is also old testament text. I use to fear a lot in the past when I serve – of scolding, not hitting targets, not able to attend meeting, etc… but now I am truly free from this bondage. I think serving God should not be like this.
Dear Blessedassurance73,
I’m so sorry to hear about your exprience. For myself, I’m also a cgl in chc, and for a good number of years as well, I have never gone through the stress and pressure that you went through. I have never been put under pressure by my ldrs to meet numbers or targets.. Its all about meeting needs for me and that’s also what my pastors and ldrs focus on :)
As for the amounts being given for building fund.. I keep it strictly confidential. I only know to see how can I help my mbrs make wise choices. Knowing is definately not to comment on the amount given. And given is definately free will, i will nv pressure anyone to give :)
I hope your issues can be resolved :)
Cheers
*giving is definately free will*
:) but i am also very glad that you have found close friendship in church, I always believe thats what church is all about! loving God and it is a family :)
32,000 members.. is it the actual membership or just a made up figure needed to give to the relevant authorities about the church size to acquire the new building.
Dear blessedssurance73,
I am sorry to hear the negative experiences you have gone through. I have been a CGL for more than 10 years and have never encounterd the unhealthy pressures you mentioned from any pastors.
When it comes to attendance, we count people simply because a good shepherd should count his sheep, and the motivation is out of love, not obligation.
When it comes to money, it is always a free-will giving and I have never pressured any members to give, or am I given a quota to hit as a CGL. Every giving, including our tithe, should be given cheerfully and never grudging.
The CHC you have described is definitely not the one that I have known. If you really felt such pressures from your leader or even ZS, you should voice out your concerns to any pastors. I am sure if there is such unhealthy practices in CHC, it should be highlighted and the issues will definitely be addressed. This is our spiritual family, and we should do our best to keep watch over every areas of the church life.
Please don’t suffer quietly, if this is your spiritual family, please bring it up your concerns to the relevant pastors.
CHC is definitely not a perfect church. We are growing and learning like any other churches, and there are bound to be areas in our church life that can be improved upon. Therefore I encourage every member of CHC to contribute their feedbacks and ideas to make this family a better place.
God bless …
TKH
TKH,
you said: “Therefore I encourage every member of CHC to contribute their feedbacks and ideas to make this family a better place.”
It would also be helpful if members can feel free to question without being seen as having “ulterior motives”, being “judgmental” or “disrespectful” or having “low EQ” — as some forummers would like to accuse others of harbouring even though they don’t even know the person.
Such is the disadvantage of online forums like these, the lack of face-to-face communication ensures that misunderstandings erupt. So it is best that one learns not to be judgmental when addressing others here, as some have the tendency to.
While there are definitely ZSes and leaders who encourage questioning among their flock, it is unfortunate that there are church members who are overzealous in preserving unity and they end up resorting to unsavoury tactics to shame the other.
Let us not forget that we have “unity in diversity” — not because we agree on all things at all times, but because we choose to compromise with one another.
Dear blessedassurance73,
I am also a CGL who has been in our church for more than 8 years. Just want to say while I really feel for you, you must have been very discouraged, I don’t think its the case for every CGL. I have been under 2 different ZS, and while their style is different, I can see that their motive was never about numbers. Sometimes leaders can be more direct because they just want to motivate us to be the best we can be. I can frankly say while I have been corrected so many times before, I know it was out of genuine care for me because my leades continued to shepherd me, guide me and believe in me.
The bible is very clear in
Psalms 3:12 For whom the LORD loves He corrects, Just as a father the son in whom he delights.
I believe recieving correction is not only part of sonship to our leaders, it builds great discipleship in the house of God. If I cannot learn from correction, I would be a “spoilt” child today.
How can it just about numbers when I see my leaders laying down their lives, working so hard, and I sense their genuine love for me and the members in their charge? Indeed, like what TKH says, counting them is because people count. If my leaders are not concerned that members are not coming, how easy it is for me be slack concerning precious souls in the kingdom of God. Having said that, I was also never subject to a quota like you said, under both my previous ZS.
Even when it comes to Building Fund report, I only know the amount of my own members’ pledges, and even then they had already shared with me beforehand out of their own desire to seek advice and wisdom, just like how I share towards my own leaders. The giving was never pressurised, my leaders did not pressurise me, and I had never pressurise the members I lead to give towards any amount :) We give because we want to, and thats why the pledge amounts differ to one’s faith.
Even in the leadership, I see the love of a family. I submit to my spiritual leaders in sonship because they love me, and I love them in return, and even for my members. Not that I have never questioned them, but I have chosen to trust them in love. They have only proven themself to be true and Godly. Not perfect, but always trying their best. :)
Blessedassurance, I hope you will continue believing :) God bless you.
@denster and deegirl:
nice speculations, BUT i doubt Sand will be selling the convention center when it just launched a few weeks back?
Secondly, even if they sell, $310 million would be a steal for a project which cost $8 BILLION to build. (barely 4%)
Thirdly, how would the government justify for a Casino & a Church built in one integrated resort – they would not risk the public debate.
Probably the only few 12,000 seating capacity auditorium in Central South area are namely Suntec Convention Centre, Sands Convention and Indoor Stadium (another government owned facility – although it’s description does not fit Pastor Kong’s blog descriptions).
Hence, all the existing statistics and figures and pictures point toward only one – aptly known as SUNtec CITY Convention Centre. (makes some financial sense for Suntec, since it’s management bought it for $245 million last year.)
@blessedssurance73 and @terence:
It is indeed very bold for the both of you as former Ministry and Cell Leaders to voice out and it is an awesome privilege to hear from you guys.
To be able to be accepting toward failures or things which do not work out is an art to be mastered.
I myself, have been in the church for the past 7 years and deeply involved in my Zone and Church leadership for the past 3 – 4 years. I have seen how it has gone through the toughest (most stressful) and the most enjoyable (when we celebrate in our sufferings together)
It is undeniable that personally I have learnt and gained invaluable experience in management, leadership, admin, confidence in speaking to people, calling them up… and many various creative skills acquired through this journey.
Looking back, there is great truth in what both of you have shared (i can’t speak for others who claim they have NEVER felt or experienced that in their decades of ministry). In my opinion, it’s either they’re in a very well-covered, grace-abundant, forgiving environment and culture … or sadly, they’re lying.
This call for an open discussion for feedback and sharing is greatly appreciated and timely. Like many have mentioned, this is a whole new chapter of CHC – moving into a new building in the marketplace, for and to penetrate.
While our 20th anniversary slogan says let success be celebrated, may i also suggest that we celebrate in our failures and weakness.
That we come to a place that it is ok to make mistakes – that there is NO NEED to cover up or inflate figures – as many have raised up.
Be assured. That our trust and eyes and assurance is on the finished work of Jesus Christ. He will not judge or condemn us for not being a 30,000 strong church at present time.
If we are just a 17,000 – 18,000 strong church, accept it, thank God for it and embrace and move on. There is no need to INFLATE that we are a 28,000 strong in weekly attendance or 32,000 in membership… I hope it is not just to prepare for Asia Conference justification or to present to the Board Members at CGI?
All this said, we have not yet touched on the missing man – Pastor Ulf Ekman, who prophesied more than 5 – 6 years ago about the new building – and he is no longer here today. (do a check on your Asia Conference and Church calendar if you can)
Let’s put that aside for now.
We as a body of Christ as a family should be forgiving toward anyone who could make mistakes. I would, members would, Leaders would, even Pastor Kong would.
Our job is not to pinpoint or criticize, NEITHER do we overly protect and cover up because of blind loyalty. We as a family share. We share our failures and mistakes or blunders. It is humility for fathers or parents to come to their children and say, “Son, i’m sorry i made a mistake, please forgive me and let’s work toward reconciliation and resolution.”
Isn’t that in a sense how our Abba Father did for us by sending His only Son, Jesus for our salvation. Could it be he came in all humility to ‘apologize’ and reach out a helping hand toward us.
This, is the total unmerited favor and grace of our awesome wonderful Redeemer, Jesus Christ.
Cheers :)
well said Handwritings!
Dear Terence,
I think it is the responsibility for every member of CHC to voice out their concerns when they see something that is not done correctly, or felt certain areas they need to seek clarification. From my personal interaction with the leaders over my life, feedback like these are more than welcomed.
However, having said that, the more important issue is not about the questions alone, but the tone and the attitude by which we ask the question. Do we demand our ways as if the church owe us an answer? Do you show disregard or disrespect to the leadership that God has appointed? Is this platform suitable for the dicussion of a particular question?
The underlying principle is found in Eph 4:29 “Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers.”
The purpose of communication is not just to bring across a point, or even to state a fact. The purpose of communication (my personal opinion) is to bring edification to another.
Let’s take heed to the advice of Scripture in James 1:19 “So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath.”
God bless and help us all …
TKH
Dear Handwritings,
I appreciate your honest sharing, but I must disagree with your statement that “there is great truth in what both of you have shared …” I would hesitate to classify that as truth, as truth should be something that should experienced by all.
I am not saying that what Terence or blessedassurance73 said is not truthful. It is their personal experience and nobody can argue about that. But to say that because of what they experienced and said that CHC is such and such an environment, that I would have to disagree.
Many times in ministry and serving God, there will be challenges and pressures, which I do not deny as I personally experienced such pressures as well. That is also the reason why some Christians burn out in their ministry for God. However, from my observation, the root cause of burn out is not due solely to external pressures, but an internal issue, often result from some issues in our personal spiritual walk. As such, when we are not doing well spiritually, a good positive challenge from the leader can be perceived/ treated as a pressure to hit a target.
That explain why I said I have never encountered unhealthy pressures from my leaders, not because I lived in heaven (hahaha), but I recognized when I felt “burn out”, it is time to strengthen my personal devotion to God again. And many times when I felt really weak in “picking up myself’, I will open my life to share my struggles with my leaders, (& definitely not in this blog)
which I received great help and makes serving God meaningful.
Hope I make sense to the readers as I’m simply sharing my experiences too …
God bless!
TKH
Wow what an exciting forum this is getting to be :)
I am certainly excited about the exact venue! And cannot wait for it to be officially announced.
Wherever it is I know that it is certainly where God has called us to be and I wil rejoice even more greatly than I am today!!! (:
I’m sure that whenever new issues are raised and new breakthoughs come, certain past issues will come to the surface again. I think this is the way that God deals with the unresolved issues in our heart. I love our leaders deeply and trust them. I know for sure my leaders and pastors would never do anything to go against their own shepherding instinct. They are called by the Lord to shepherd us. I believe that as a shepherd they would not treat confidential issues lightly and definitely would not pressure people unduly for statistics. We count because people count. Personally I have never felt pressured even in the slightest in this area.
However, I am sure that as we all have different paths and different routes in life, some of us may not have gone through such an ‘easy’ and smooth path. I do not know why but I only know that God has a great and unique purpose for each one of us. I pray that all of us can find ours. For those brothers and sisters here, I am glad if you can still find CHC a family with friends and praise and worship you love and enjoy. That is truly what we all need in a family. May this new season of building lives bring you great comfort and strength. (:
Be blessed!
I emphatize with some of the people who have had bad experiences serving under the leadership of the church whether were they involved in cg ministry or any other ministry for the matter. One person in this thread mentioned that he felt that the whole church functions and have an overly salient emphasis on numbers and attendance. From what I understand about this situation, there have been many members who felt pressurized to invite their friends to church from their leaders.
A good question to ask would be why would the members feel pressurized? I guess it’s because the leaders were pressurized.
And why would the leaders be pressurized? Well perhaps their ZSes/pastors are imposing such pressures on them. One wonders where all these pressure comes from.
Why would there be such emphasis on attendance one wonders sometimes. Could it be just a very zealous heart for soul-winning? Well perhaps. If a phenomenon is isolated, maybe it is just a fluke but if something is experienced across the whole church with people leaving church because they feel that their cgls are too controlling then something seem to be amiss. And cgls in this blog are speaking out about their experiences in ministry. Definitely it doesn’t look as though as if every ZS or pastor is imposing the form of pressure that some of them talk about but for a few of them to voice out about such issues I think there must be something amiss. ZSes and pastors seem to be one of the “filters” of “commands” given by the senior leadership. I assume that just as everyone is unique, every ZS/pastor is different in the way they lead their zones. The presence of those negative experiences that are experienced by different cgls and I assume in different zones are enough indicators of the pressure that certain ZSes/pastors are facing. Could there be any financial implication to attendance I wonder.
One writer mentioned the absence of Pastor Ulf for sometime. Since he was the one who gave the prophecy of this new building I guess it would be appropriate for us to acknowledge him but as of now I think his name has not been mentioned. Pastor Ulf seemed to be the spiritual father of Pastor Kong as he has acknowledged many times in previous years. But it seemed that there is no more mention or acknowledgment of him and people have been quite curious about his whereabouts. I think the church would also like an explanation for his absence since this “iconic building for the marketplace to penetrate the marketplace” vision is closely connected to him.
Having said all these, I believe that God has ordained this church and has a calling for this man of God. Many lives have been impacted and I believe that over the next numbers of years more lives will be transformed as the people enter into God’s promises. There are just certain questions that seemed to be quite significant enough for people to view their thoughts openly online. I feel that an explanation of certain issues would be greatly appreciated by the congregation.
God bless!
To Gerad
Some people tell me, that they wish that their church could be constantly “moving” like CHC, and some people also tell me that it is too “ fast paced”. I believe people respond differently to various situations and one must find a church that can suit their pace and lifestyle. Therefore, to some people, it might be pressure, to some it is just the kind of pace that they like. Hopefully, we can agree that it is different strokes for different folks.
Pressure also involves a need for change. If I keep on failing in my maths exam, there is definitely pressure for me to put in more work towards my studies. In the same way, fruitfulness is a lifestyle, and one must acknoledge that there is always a need to adjust one’s lifestyle, so that we can become more fruitful. So sometimes, when someone feels pressure, it might not be necessary bad. I think one will find pressure in any situation, and it is only magnified as CHC is a mega church.
I believe that as any church is a family, there will also be misgivings and a clash of ideals. Christianity has 2000 years of history in this, and the church today is no different. I think that it is more important for us to realize that as a family, there will be differences in opinions and there will be people who “fall” in their faith.
It is therefore not surprising that a large church like City Harvest has people who step down from leadership due to misgivings, or not surprising that there are Christians who leave or backslide as well. So why, be surprised, when there are people who do have differences in opinion. But I think it certainly adds food for thought about the issue of “control”. I certainly do not think that the church is controlling, or else there will not be any discussion here, and unsatisfactory entries will only be deleted.
But I think that it is important that for those of us in the faith, to agree to disagree on certain matters and to just move on in live. There are more souls out there to save, and certainly more people out there who need to know that Christians do not make a hobby of “killing” each other on the blogsphere. Ironically, I do not see anybody else doing it, except those in the Christian Faith.
hmm growth %, attendance, possible financial implications?, incentives? sound like some sales talk. hee..
The word ‘Iconic’ seem to have disappeared just like how Ps Ulf did.. i wonder when is our spiritual grandfather coming back. Is he still sick to come back to Spore? no pun ;)
to handwritings and terencelee,
thank you for your open and honest sharing. i have been in chc for 6 years and have been in leadership for more than 2 years and i can vouch that you are telling the truth about the nature and demands of leadership.
to the rest,
why live in denial? the demand is there. attendance, tithing, building fund, number of blood donors, number of school of theology students, number of members going for bible study, early morning prayer meeting, overnight prayer meeting, prayer focus. just admit the demand is there. if God has given you the grace and strength to cope with it, good for you.
Hi blessedassurance73
I’m sorry to hear that you feel so stressed over numbers. I do agree with you, that it is important to serve God with joy, and enjoy what we do.
I’ve been in CHC for 11 years, and a CGL for 4 years now. Personally, I’ve taken part in many Arise & Build Campaigns. Never once was I forced or pressured to give a particular amount. I’ve never experienced any of my leaders doing that to me or my fellow cell group members.
I think it’s alright for us as leaders to know how much our own cell group members are giving. That is because as good shepherds, we do not want them to give an amount that is beyond their capacity.
I agree with TKH_original and jinglebelle9, we count people because they mean a lot to God. 10 person coming means 10 person’s lives stand a chance to be impacted by God. For me, I’ve never been forced by my ZS to hit target. They only encourage me to do my best. BUT, I do experienced times where I felt pressurized, especially when I am tired and negative. I noticed that it was me who needs to keep my heart in check. I mean, if I truly understand why I am doing certain things, why should I feel pressurize?
We encourage members to give blood, because we believe in benefiting others who are in need. We teach members to tithe, as we believe God will bless them. We encourage more sign ups for SOT, because we believe in raising believers who are equipped. We want them to attend bible study lesson, because we believe understanding of the bible has great impact on their spiritual growth. We encourage people for prayer meetings, because we believe prayers draw us closer to God.
Numbers are not everything, or the most important thing. But numbers do tell stories.
Thanks to all the leaders who’ve encouraged us, now we see ourselves doing things that may seem impossible back then. Perhaps we need to learn to differentiate pressure from positive encouragement.
I believe for us to work together, understanding our leaders are important. If we truly understand their hearts, then maybe we’ll stop linking their actions to negative motives. It’s not about following because you have to, but following because you want to.
I hope that you’ll find back the passion to serve God once again.
i think it’s really interesting to realize that even people who doubt the leadership, or feel negative towards the leadership, would still remain in city harvest. i guess there must be something really fantastic about this church.
God bless
@chromatograhy
Like what many has mentioned, this place has a strong praise and worship team and atmosphere is undeniably one of the best and it is the friendships and relationships that has been built that are keeping some of them here.
Well, i hope you won’t want to hear stories of people LEAVING the church do you? (although it’d be interesting if the church leadership reveals those statistics) – for one i know Rick Warren’s church does that every year – the number of leaders who left and number of members who left and they identify the root cause of it.
Now that is making resolution to a problem, rather than putting up a good front and say – “Hey, we’re the fastest growing!” when in actual fact, we have not been growing the past 3 years.
To ■tankimhock on March 3rd, 2010 3:05 am
I agree that there are demands in church ministry, just that there are demands in family commitment, work commitment or even in any friendships.
Demands are not wrong, in fact, necessary and healthy for progress. The fact that the Christian life is not a calling to a free and easy life, or a “bless-me” life. The calling of Christ is a high demand. In fact, it is the total abandonment of one’s life and surrender to the Lordship of Christ.
However, the beautiful thing is that we do it, not out of obligation, but we do it “heartily as unto the Lord and not unto men.” Col 3:23.
As such, I think there is no denial here except for one, the denial of self. If there is no self, then there will be no pressure. My personal aim is to be like what Paul said in Gal 2:20:
“I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. ”
I think I am still a long way towards that goal, but working towards it by the grace of God.
You sounded a little frustrated in ministry (maybe I was wrong). But I pray the you can last the long term in your service to the Lord.
God bless!
TKH
To ■Handwritings on March 3rd, 2010 5:09 am
Well, I would like to hear stories of people leaving church, cos if I can, I would love to find out why and do anything possible to help them to stay strong in their walk with God.
You said “Now that is making resolution to a problem, rather than putting up a good front and say – “Hey, we’re the fastest growing!” when in actual fact, we have not been growing the past 3 years.”
May I know where do you get the facts? Else you are saying that the church is lying, which as a CHC member, I will be offended by that. Please watch your own words, else you may find yourself being the same camp with “the accuser of the brethrens.”
May the Lord bless you …
TKH
32000 members with 10000 members constantly overseas.. thats quite a number of overseas members for a church of our size huh? A ratio of 1:3! i wonder if its a norm ratio for churches or just particular our church. but well again, maybe the number game is quite lucrative to play with. april coming! ??incentive?? is looming! wippee
TKH_original “When it comes to attendance, we count people simply because a good shepherd should count his sheep, and the motivation is out of love, not obligation.”
I don’t deny we count people because people matter. But what happened we end up counting for the sake of counting. E.g. when it comes to year end reporting, it will be a number game where we try to manipulate numbers. I can give many examples how we manipulate the numbers to make the growth chart look better, but I don’t want to go that way.
If the motivation is really love, then a member who did not tithe and cannot attend cell group or service due to work, the AMA count should be 1 instead of 0 after adjustment. And the leader must explain the “drop of 1”. And then in October, the AMA suddenly can be 1 and then the adjusted growth rate become higher again.
Actualy, the pastor do not look at numbers but percentage. So, if I have a CG of 20 and I drop 2 that week, it’s 10%. But if I have a CG of 10 and I drop the same 2, it is 20% and this is deemed serious. Still, it is 2 person but different impact.
TKH_original “When it comes to money, it is always a free-will giving and I have never pressured any members to give, or am I given a quota to hit as a CGL. Every giving, including our tithe, should be given cheerfully and never grudging.”
Good for you. But those who experience can identify that it’s seldom the case. “You got no faith is it?” is a common phrase to strongly encourage a person to give more. Giving is about joy, not faith. God loves a cheerful giver. I do think that this is unlikely to happen today as compared to my time as a leader. Hollywood time BF is the most stressful.
My zone want to pledge the highest and have the highest percentage fulfillment so every week we end up calling members why they have not fulfil.
TKH_original “The CHC you have described is definitely not the one that I have known. If you really felt such pressures from your leader or even ZS, you should voice out your concerns to any pastors. I am sure if there is such unhealthy practices in CHC, it should be highlighted and the issues will definitely be addressed. This is our spiritual family, and we should do our best to keep watch over every areas of the church life.”
TKH_original “Please don’t suffer quietly, if this is your spiritual family, please bring it up your concerns to the relevant pastors.
CHC is definitely not a perfect church. We are growing and learning like any other churches, and there are bound to be areas in our church life that can be improved upon. Therefore I encourage every member of CHC to contribute their feedbacks and ideas to make this family a better place.“
Have I ever tried? Yes. And I was severely chastised by my ZS for not going through “proper channel”. End up the ZS was assigned to look into the matter. And the conclusion ended up is I have no capacity and no faith and have poor attitude. When I tried to explain that I done my best, I was told doing the best is not enough. So how can I be hopeful that feedback will ever have any benefit? In a way, I regretted even highlighting. Before you think its because I had a bad attitude, I was the one who never raised my voice.
I know we are not perfect. I also know some things cannot change once it become a norm. In CHC, this is a norm and people dare not speak up. So I rather just step down. At least I can love God without feeling guilty or bad. I also don’t want to judge but just share my own personal experience.
@TKH_original
I used to trust the official figures and what was announced on stage 100%, i would defend for anything my friends or critics say against CHC.
However, when you know that things aren’t the way it is, would you actually stand up for something that is actually not the truth? I believe that’s actually far worse than lying.
Quote from you:
“May I know where do you get the facts? Else you are saying that the church is lying, which as a CHC member, I will be offended by that. Please watch your own words, else you may find yourself being the same camp with “the accuser of the brethrens.””
I am merely quoting the above facts and figures as brought up by the fellow commentaries. Whether they are real facts that remains to be proven.
It’s the same with commentaries or pulpit messages. I am quite certain any assured preacher or pastor will tell its members to check the facts, read the Bible and not just hear and take in everything that is being preached on pulpit – afterall we are just a broken vessel and some things are man’s judgements and opinions rather than what the Bible says.
It’s the same when we don’t take everything in our science textbooks as 100% just because it was printed and published in black and white. Before you know it, another paper is published to prove the scientific finding inaccurate.
What i’m suggesting is to be prudent in searching our facts. Fact is one thing, truth is another.
Knowing the truth and hiding it (or cover up) – i don’t think it’s ethical, fair or just. The same goes for you and me. Definitely not good for the sheep who are die-hard followers of the Church.
I know for a FACT that Expo Halls and Jurong West are not fully packed. Our senior Pastor himself said before that we will hit 30,000 ONLY when Expo Halls (slopes included) and Jurong West (terrace included) are filled.
Do the math.
I hope any bold ushers would like to verify the facts, and let the truth be told. :)
Well, or maybe CHC has started many other Satellite services in Singapore which we do not know of? Please edify and clarify if you can.
Cheers
jinglebelle9 “I don’t think its the case for every CGL. I have been under 2 different ZS, and while their style is different, I can see that their motive was never about numbers”
I agree it is not the case for every CGL.
jinglebelle9 “I can frankly say while I have been corrected so many times before, I know it was out of genuine care for me because my leades continued to shepherd me, guide me and believe in me.”
What have you been corrected about? Is it about attendance or giving? How did it relate to genuine care for you? While correction is necessary to develop a person, can the abuse of it becomes typical brain washing and control?
There are times when I need to be discipled for the right reason and I will accept it, but to be chastened just because my member cannot attend svc/cg or fulfil certain target like prayer mtg fiure too low, etc, I think it’s unnecessary.
jinglebelle9 “If my leaders are not concerned that members are not coming, how easy it is for me be slack concerning precious souls in the kingdom of God. Having said that, I was also never subject to a quota like you said, under both my previous ZS.”
You mean they never question you when the attendance drop from forecast? My leader used to only be concerned that the members are coming. When not coming, it is my concern to push them to other service or makeup. And my leader will not even call me once in a week to ask how am I, and we need to do follow up to call every member. The reason is being a full time staff, they are busy with pastoral work overseeing hundreds. We volunteers who have to work and struggle at our own career and family have the time to follow up. Funny how the only time I get a call is when attendance drop or things happen or an answer is needed.
What happened to being the last to be first, when our leader instead of doing the least from us expect the most?
I can only believe God. It is very sad that what some of us went through are never heard. And a nice picture is always painted.
TKH_original “I think it is the responsibility for every member of CHC to voice out their concerns when they see something that is not done correctly, or felt certain areas they need to seek clarification. From my personal interaction with the leaders over my life, feedback like these are more than welcomed.”
I believe pastors are open, but when the instruction filter down, it is a very different story. I will never demand the church to give me an answer because I know it is not my right and it will never happen anyway. God is the judge. My point is that attendance/targets/numbers tell a story but not necessary the correct picture. It is like saying because the numbers are right and so things will be fine.
TKH_original “I appreciate your honest sharing, but I must disagree with your statement that “there is great truth in what both of you have shared …” I would hesitate to classify that as truth, as truth should be something that should experienced by all.
I am not saying that what Terence or blessedassurance73 said is not truthful. It is their personal experience and nobody can argue about that. But to say that because of what they experienced and said that CHC is such and such an environment, that I would have to disagree.”
You are right. CHC is certainly not such an environment. Pastor’s heart is definitely not like that. But it depend on the staff taking the instruction to paint a totally different picture.
TKH_original However, from my observation, the root cause of burn out is not due solely to external pressures, but an internal issue, often result from some issues in our personal spiritual walk. As such, when we are not doing well spiritually, a good positive challenge from the leader can be perceived/ treated as a pressure to hit a target..
This I disagree. And this is the mindset that is the issue. It’s like saying if the ZS can give an unreasonable demand and because we do not take it well we are not doing well.
What is a good positive challenge? Give me an example and I can show you how I have seen people take this positive challenge and deliver it in a negative way. Get a member to pop a panadol and come cg when he have a bad migraine headache? It has happened. Is that the way to show care and not drop a number?
To me at least, the way to avoid getting into the not doing well area is really to not allow myself to be stumbled. So I choose to step down. And even then, I was seen as “no capacity”
Gerad “A good question to ask would be why would the members feel pressurized? I guess it’s because the leaders were pressurized. And why would the leaders be pressurized? Well perhaps their ZSes/pastors are imposing such pressures on them. One wonders where all these pressure comes from..
From my understanding, there a “top growth bonus” thing going on and other thing. Clearly, my ZS was pressured into performing and showing good growth. What determines if a ZS can become a pastor? Growth is one of them. How to have real growth when you do a event today and expect people to keep coming back?
rainbow_rice I’ve been in CHC for 11 years, and a CGL for 4 years now. Personally, I’ve taken part in many Arise & Build Campaigns. Never once was I forced or pressured to give a particular amount. I’ve never experienced any of my leaders doing that to me or my fellow cell group members.
I’ve been here about the same as you. 1997 at Hollywood. I can tell you I have a totally different experience on this. That time, my leader decides what is a faith amount because when I pledge an amount (much more than my tithe), I was told to go and pray again because it have no faith.
rainbow_rice I agree with TKH_original and jinglebelle9, we count people because they mean a lot to God. 10 person coming means 10 person’s lives stand a chance to be impacted by God. For me, I’ve never been forced by my ZS to hit target. They only encourage me to do my best. BUT, I do experienced times where I felt pressurized, especially when I am tired and negative. I noticed that it was me who needs to keep my heart in check. I mean, if I truly understand why I am doing certain things, why should I feel pressurize?
For me I was told the best is not enough. Understanding what you are doing and feeling pressured is 2 different things. You can only do so much. If u have friends or members don’t want to come no matter how you try to love them, and your attendance drop by 3 or 4, will you be pressured? For me, I am not because I have done my best and they have valid reasons. But my leader made me feel differently.
As you can see, the implied attitude tend to suggest that I am not doing well that’s why I cannot cope. IS that the case? I don’t want to discuss that.
rainbow_rice Numbers are not everything, or the most important thing. But numbers do tell stories.
During meetings, the topic of number, target and forecast took the most time. Tue is about target, Thur/Fri/Sat about forecast and Sun about attendance. What more important than numbers that it will take more than 4 days? I stopped lying to myself then, and decided to move on.
Why do I still stay in CHC? Because I am happy now. I just keep to myself. My family is here, I married here, my friends are here. Im happy I have them
Most of all I trust Pastor Kong’s heart – I have seen how he is when the church is very small, and he is still the same when the church is so big now. But I doubt the rest of them when instructions filtered down are changed. For many of them, it is a career n I am probably a tool.
TKH_original Demands are not wrong, in fact, necessary and healthy for progress. The fact that the Christian life is not a calling to a free and easy life, or a “bless-me” life. The calling of Christ is a high demand. In fact, it is the total abandonment of one’s life and surrender to the Lordship of Christ.
I agree, but the attitude and spirit behind the demand can sometimes be wrong. To put it simply, I have no problem with any of the demands except when it comes to counting numbers, how we count it, how we account for the drop, the spirit behind it, etc – all lead to a focus on numbers instead of people.
TKH_original However, the beautiful thing is that we do it, not out of obligation, but we do it “heartily as unto the Lord and not unto men.” Col 3:23.
Behind a commited CHC member, many times they have to do things because it is an obligation, Because if they do not do it, then they will be deem as have no faith or got attitude problem or not teacheable.
TKH_original As such, I think there is no denial here except for one, the denial of self. If there is no self, then there will be no pressure. My personal aim is to be like what Paul said in Gal 2:20:
“I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. ”
I don’t think Jesus will do this to his people. He said in Isa 42:3: A bruised reed he will not break, and a smouldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice…
Very often the words of leadership crush a members spirit. For what? Will of God? No. For drop in target, for not giving enough, for not doing enough. It’s hard to love God under such leadership. Even God call us to “reason with Him”. Yet we cannot do it with our leaders. I know not every leader is like that, but we cannot use this to negate the fact that it exist.
We can only freely love when we are really free. When the burden of religion is taken away and the real work of God is being done, not just counting numbers.
By the way, are you bro Kim Hock?
I hope I dont come across as trying to tear down the unity of the church. It will never be my intention. But I think I should share my experience n these are what really happened.
I too served under a few zones before and though the leadership styles of meeting targets have so far been similar, although the leaders are caring, they also have to answer for drop in numbers.
The pressure is really passed on.
I am really looking forward to this weekend’s announcement.
While there are loads of speculation, as fellow CHC members, let’s be able to put aside whatever differences we may have or doubts as yet uncleared, and celebrate together with Pastor and the rest of the church at the edge of such a memorable and historical weekend for us!
@blessedassurance73: I’ve read some of your comments. My 2 cents –> I have been a cgl for a long, long while (yes, even in HW times)… I think while we may all go through rough stages in our cg ministry, and face pressures, I think to me, the thing that keeps me doing what I am doing despite of “growing up” from a youth, till a working adult with a family of my own, is the call of God in my life. I believe in the importance of being a good cgl. It means not just taking the CG meeting week after week, but it also means as shepherds, we are entrusted with the spiritual lives and spiritual growth of our members.
Things like bible study, prayer meeting… these all speak of the health of our members and as such, it is natural for our leaders to pay attention to these signs. A decline in this, coupled with a decline or plateau of our attendances basically show that the cg is not a healthy one.
People are people. Leaders aren’t perfect. In their leadership of us as cgls, they may say or do things that may seem a little “rough” around the edges. But at the end of the day, I trust that they, together with Pastor, are all rooting for the same cause – to grow the Kingdom and serve His purposes.
Stepping down seemed to have been a rather “forced” and painful decision for you. I pray you do find your peace once again with your leader, and find the answers that you are seeking out for.
@ yiba yib antenehh
wow, being in the leadership position in this organisation seems to be lucrative, and may I know what’s the incentive? :)
haha we are volunteers, we are not paid ;) might be different for those on payroll. yiba yiba!
Notes on A&B :)
On March 6-7, 2010, the 5th Arise & Build Offering will be both a
(1) Cash Offering, and
(2) a Pledge Commitment to give over the next 4 months.
Obviously, the more we are able to give in cash upfront, the sooner we will be able to build.
At first thought, most people do not think they have much cash lying around to give. But with a little creativity, each of us can probably come up with a sizable cash gift.
And together, it will all add up.
Here are some creative ways that people in our City Harvest family are already using to raise more money for the building fund. We suggest you try them:
1. Eliminate all excessive spending for the next four months.
Cut down excessive spending on clothing, cosmetics, facial treatment, etc. Save the cash for the building fund.
2. Postpone all major purchases for a few more months in order to give more.
3. Take a second, part-time job.
A number of members are already giving private tuitions in order to be able to give more for the Arise and Build campaign.
4. Have everyone in your family locate the spare change in your house and begin collecting it all in one giant piggy bank.
5. Give your year-end bonuses, stock dividends, stock, bonds, or tax refunds.
6. Go to a cheaper resort for your annual vacation.
The money saved could be added to your offering. You can still have a great time in a less expensive venue.
7. Hold a garage sale.
You probably have a garage or closet full of unused items that could be converted into cash. It is estimated that the average CHC member has at least $500 in assets sitting unused in his or her storeroom.
There are two basic approaches to finding more cash to give:
(1) Look for ways to reduce your expenses.
(2) Look for ways to increase your income.
Hi blessedassurance73,
I truly believe that works of God are pressurizing. That is the nature of God’s works. That is the way God molds and expands our inner capacity.
I believe that at the end of the day, we are all volunteers as cell group leaders, ministry leaders or just “ordinary members” trying to do something for God. If God will not force us into serving His vision, I know that the church leadership will also certainly respect anyone’s decision who may decide to step down, if he/she requests it.
I don’t know about you, but I believe that the focus on numbers is still a good thing, having all said and done. What should be more “upped” is probably the level of encouragement that we can give to one another, foster greater bonds with fellow servants in Christ. Most of the time, we feel pressured because we do not share it with someone who can encourage us.
I believe CHC will not be where she is if not for visionary people who put their words into actions. This is my personal opinion, I’d like to think CHC is where she is because she is a very “action” church.
To complete my post, I think it’s wonderful that you found your family in church and is still faithfully attending church, loving Pastor Kong and loving God. But I also read that you are “keeping to yourself”. I believe God has much more in store for you if you are willing to serve Him once again in the same fervor as you once did. I believe that it’s important to work together with the entire body of Christ, not just the head of the body (Pastor Kong and the church pastors). Only then is the body TRULY functioning healthily. If being CGL is no longer what is, perhaps you can begin by serving in other ministries if you haven’t already been. =)
To Omega
City Harvest is definitely a fast paced church if one would define it as a church that entertains a lot of events as well as the constant stimulation to grow its membership. It is considered a fast paced church if one defines it as having a lot of overseas projects. These are all good and there is nothing wrong with these events and activities. In terms of acceleration of progress, there would definitely be pressure of some sort. But enough people raising up the issues of feeling pressurized to invite friends or in the words of some volunteer leaders in this blog to increase their attendance, seems to indicate that this is rather an unhealthy phenomenon. I don’t think Jesus was ever in the business of comparing attendances or excluding people because they are not “fast paced” enough. From exposure to different biographies, there are more people who feel the same way but are not raising these issues openly. Sometimes people continue to engage in certain activities not because they feel it is right but because they are fearful to speak up due to fear of being labeled as deviants.
A famous social-psychological study by Milgram seems to suggest that people will continue to act against their conscience because they fear and trust the authority that is presiding over their lives. The experimenter orders the teacher; the unsuspecting test subject, to give electric shocks to the learner who is actually an actor electric shocks when he fails to answer correctly. In reality there was actually no punishment. Some test subjects started to question the purpose of the experiment at a certain high level of voltage. Others continued after been assured that they would not be held responsible. The experiment concluded that people will act against their conscience under pressure of authority figures. It seemed that just as there are people who questioned the purpose of the experiment, there are people who are questioning the incessant focus on certain issues in church such as attendance. That form of leadership seems to be bordering on control. Some that starts to really question the rationality of the whole situation seems to have stepped down from leadership or left the church. Believe these are people who sincerely wants to serve God but are disillusioned due to the overt emphasis on distractive issues.
To blessedassurance73
You mentioned about the growth bonus for good performance for the ZSes. My question is this that if there are indeed incentives given to ZSes or pastors for meeting targets in their zones, then a logical train of thought would lead one to question why would they be pressurizing their leaders to grow their cellgroups. If leaders from more than one zone are pressurized by their ZSes/staff to grow their cgs, could this suggest that they are hard pressed for the incentives? A rational process of thinking would lead one to believe that perhaps the “basic pay” is uncomfortable and they need this “commisson” to sustain their livelihood? I don’t think there is anything wrong with rewarding for good performances but with the kind of control and pressure that some seemed to be experiencing from their zone leaders could it indicate that really that the “basic pay” is barely insufficient. Not every church staff is single and definitely such incentives and it has to amount to quite a substantial amount, seeing the form of leadership that is experienced, will go some way meeting certain needs.
Well if the incentives are indeed facts, then souls seemed to be quantified by money in the church. This seems to suggest that it may really not be their faults if they are desperate enough due to the implemented financial system in the church. One wonders if even soul-winning is built on a system of monetary rewards, what other financial ambiguities may exist.
Gerad, good point! Incentives and bonuses tied with church growth?
Why not just scrap the incentives and increase the basics? one cant help but wonder how much influence does monetary rewards have over God’s work. What is the ultimate reason for achieving the hard pressed attendance?
‘ It’s not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ Says the LORD of hosts. ‘Don’t be amazed and confused! Just know and accept the changes with joy. And may your spirit know a breakthrough and enjoy that, what I will do. For I say to you once again, and again and again, that I am a faithful God, I am a God of grace, I am a God of compassion. You proclaim it, you believe in it, you dream about it, you act upon it, because it will truly come to pass. Yes, you dreamed about a new building, you visualised an iconic auditorium, you confessed to arise and build the sanctuary to grow from glory to glory and from strength to strength, you like its location in the marketplace, for the marketplace and to penetrate the marketplace. You want increase and growth but you have seen nothing yet. The servants that I will lift up will prophesy through the whole country, they will be bold, strong, courageous and wise. They will run through the whole country and beyond, they will plant, and plant, and plant and plant. City for city, town for town. Fear not, for I am with you. It will be a seizure, a battle against the forces of the darkness. But truly, My servants will attain the victory. The victory lies in the hands of My servants. Yes, I’m in a great shape and I started this work in this country and in this church, I sealed it and I don’t allow anybody to interfere in My heavenly deeds. What I have planned, it will come to pass. And I have said, and once again I will say: truly, like the wind on the fields, yes, like a desert wind, like a mighty wind, that blows, I will blow as well on the people of this country and Asia. Yes, in a great shape I started a work in this church, and I will produce what will be truly tremendous and rewarding in harvest. The anointing of victory, the anointing of increase and the anointing of multiplication power will be released on My servants right now.’ – This is what the LORD says. In the name of Jesus! Amen!
Dear blessedassurance73,
From all that you have shared, I really feel for you. I am really sorry for the negative experiences that you have gone through. If the ZS is behaving like what you have said, I am really sorry for the misrepresentation. I would like to encourage you to really seek to speak to one of the pastors whom you look up to, or any leader in CHC that you have respected for. From my experience with the leadership, I do not think that they will “sweep things under the carpet.”
Maybe I am blessed, that the leadership that God has placed over my life in CHC has been great overall. Of course I remember some unpleasant encounters with some leaders quite long time ago, as the church was much younger and less experience, but didn’t really affect me somehow by God’s grace.I also have my fair share in being challenged and “stretched” in my faith in ministry by my leaders, but I must honestly said I didn’t feel that I am pressured or manipulated. I feel safe to share my struggles with my leaders, and the truth is many times, I have been strengthened by their genuine care and concern. That is why I feel sad for you if such things really happen, and I pray that God will help us as a whole to become a better church.
I am not in the position to comment on the issue raised about the so called “incentives”, as I do not know all the facts. However one thing I know, that a church will grow when there are true shepherds who really care for God’s flock. The church is never built on hirelings, cos when the storms come, they will fled. The leadership I have seen in CHC did not change much over the past many years. They have been faithfully serving God even when the church is small and poor. Of course I am sure a labourer should be worthy of his wages, and God is a good rewarder, and rightfully so. My observation of the leaders that I have known is that they are shepherds, not hirelings. If what they want is money, they probably will be out in the world long ago for better paying jobs while the church has nothing.
Of course the church has grown and there are many more new leaders raised to shoulder the vision that God has given to us. However, we should give time for the younger leaders to develop, learn and mature in their leadership. I am quite sure that a church of our size, there will be bound to be times when some leaders misrepresent the senior leadership. But I also want to say that it is the responsibilty of every CHC members to be a watchman over God’s house, and not remain in silence when something is amiss. Of course we should not do it in a judgmental or critical attitude, but with respect and the intention of bringing edification to the church.
I apologize for the lengthy reply, but I really pray that God will help you, as well as the whole church, to grow in greater strength and glory.
God bless …
TKH
Dear Handwritings,
I think your intention is really getting clearer and I have my reservations of your claim that you are serving in leadership capacity in CHC.
You said “Knowing the truth and hiding it (or cover up) – i don’t think it’s ethical, fair or just. The same goes for you and me. Definitely not good for the sheep who are die-hard followers of the Church.”
Your words reveal your mistrust over the leadership, and I think probably you have conceived in your mind a conspiracy of a cover-up. I think you have mistaken. You have forgotten that this is a spiritual house and God is a living God who judges. If CHC leadership is really behaving like what you claim, I do not even think you will need to cast your judgment, for God Himself is a defender on His glory. Your comments seem to ignore a living God who is more than capable of cleansing His church, and leading the church in the right path.
You said “I know for a FACT that Expo Halls and Jurong West are not fully packed. Our senior Pastor himself said before that we will hit 30,000 ONLY when Expo Halls (slopes included) and Jurong West (terrace included) are filled. Do the math. ”
From my understanding in estimating the size of the church, as a general guide, you can technically call CHC a church of more than 50,000, because of a simple fact that we did have a attendance of more than 50,000 for quite a number of occasions. (I could be wrong, but this is from my interaction with other leaders in different churches.) The fact that Ps Kong gave such a detailed figure should imply that there is an accounting process and a system of tabulating the figures of CHC membership. As a CGL, I know we have a IT system to help us to account for our figures. (Honestly, I am not sure does any other church has that.) We are definitely not blindly believing in a figure that is plucked out of thin air. This also leads me to think that probably you are not a leader in the church, cos if you know, you probably will not “do your math” using your own assumption.
God bless.
TKH
Dear blessedassurance,
I have no rebuttal besides my personal testimony. My first ZS was someone strict but kind, she discipled me but she would still believe in me, and she will call me just to ask me how’s my day and meet me up for coffee from time to time. My 2nd and current ZS was someone unbelievably busy but would pray for me when I was struggling, and answer my calls at 2-3am, who will play guitar for my cg when I have no guitarist, who cares for every single one of my members like her own’s. That is care to me. That they will go the extra mile for me, and they groomed me and taught me so much.
Discipleship can be anything regarding my lousy attitude to my lack of faith to even my own complacency about my cg. If I don’t change, I will never grow as a believer. How do I know it’s not just about numbers? When after a major event with many weeks of planning, when I share that only 1 friend received salvation this week, my current ZS will tell me: It’s all worth it.
When I see them working so hard, coming to lead zone meetings with dark eye rings, leading prayer meeting and zone events, giving mass bible study during weekday and weekends, taking time to counsel member upon member. Don’t tell me they don’t work hard.. they work so hard.
I know that they might not have time to always call me up and chat, but they are always there when I need them. Maybe for you it was Pastor Kong that you stayed for.. But for me it was the very leaders (ZSes) that gave their lives to fulfil my destiny. Because it was through them I saw the love of God and experienced how real it is.
I’m very sorry for your bad experience.. but I can only regret to say that like parents, we very often don’t get to choose our leaders. Just like our members choose to love us and accept our CGL leadership despite our weaknesses, it might have been a different story if you have accepted yours. :)
God bless.
TKH_original
Please don’t be naive in the replies.
The IT system for CHC is obvious and widely known as Church Management System (CMS). Any CGL familiar with it logs in to click and update
- Attendance (CG, Svc, PM, BS, AMA)
- Prayer / Study Hrs
- Absentee Report
- Growth Chart
- Tithing Status of every member
- Update Particulars
- Register for Asia Conferences
- Bible Study Tracking… and many others.
The “do your math” notion is using simple observation and math calculation without going under and thinking that just because we have a CMS (IT Data) system means that it is an accurate.
Similarly, having an Microsoft Excel sheet doesn’t mean I am counting or tabulating correctly. The question is about the inputs, formulation, how it is done and the purpose of it. Whether they tally – i do not know. But from physical observation – it would be interesting if ANYONE walk through Service 1 – 4 this weekend – visit all the various services and see if there are 28,000++ attendees.
Finally, if you’d want to go ahead and proclaim that we are a 55,000 strong church. So be it. Just because everyone counts or brags it that way does not mean it’s the right ethical transparent account.
Just because my Cell Group has 150 people for Easter doesn’t make my CG a 150 attendee group when it probably only has 30+ every week.
I hope we can establish some understanding here. What i’m proposing is not a sweeping mistrust as you have suggested but a thoughtful provoking insight to really what counts and what matters.
Having said that, I guess at the end of the day our dear beloved Jesus would probably be smiling away and say hey, let’s be cheerful and be quick to forgive to love forever – all these figures and statistics count for nothing when the finished work was accomplished on the Cross.
That alone counts for EVERYTHING.
Hi Handwritings,
Why can’t you trust the Church leadership about the accounting of numbers? What is there to lie about?
If you are a CGL, you should know that every member is accounted for in the CMS and double accounted for by your ZS (exactly what blessedassurance was talking about). While some people feel is pressure, its really excellence and accountability.
If you based the attendance by adding the Expo and JW capacity, is that leaving out all the other ministries (from Tamil Service to Dialect Service)?
So it happens, I was also an ex-usher. For a fact, I know they painstakingly count every single member seated in the hall. This number is submitted to the leadership, and what happens is that there is often a “extra” number of members that are not accounted by the CGLs, which are the walk-ins or visitors, which tells me that they care enough to count and tally all these numbers.
For a church that is concerned about percentages, and numbers, and counting people because people count, I seriously don’t think we are slipshod about our numbers.
Feel free to join our the company that audits us.
God bless :)
jinglebelle9 “I’m very sorry for your bad experience.. but I can only regret to say that like parents, we very often don’t get to choose our leaders. Just like our members choose to love us and accept our CGL leadership despite our weaknesses, it might have been a different story if you have accepted yours. :)”
Are you implying that if I just accepted the treatment and just go on, I will be happier? I don’t know how that is being a leader when he/she cannot even stand up to some wrong practices and just take it as the norms – because we “have no choice since we are born into it” – there is always a choice. I can always kept quiet and “flow”, but I will not be doing the right things.
You know jinglebelle this is really the problem with most leaders in CHC. Rather than acknowledge that there is a system issue and deal with it to correct the system, we choose to blindly follow the systems. It’s a conditioning to agree to everything and not question
Accepting their weakness (I have always) or forgiving is of no use if the offence is repeating. I love my ZS and there is never a time I will not lay down my convenience for them – which is precisely all the more I felt let down and hurt by what I experienced.
When I was a CGL, my calling is to protect, guide and govern my members. I think I did a very good job as a leader until I have to answer questions like “why you drop 2 this week”, “why your cg tithing percentage so low at 70%”, “why only 5 friends for big day”, etc.
Counting the attendance is good and important for the purpose of accountability. We count because Jesus count sheeps. But he also left the 99 for the one. And when we have to manipulate the numbers to show something like a positive growth, no drop, it tells a lot about the spirit behind it. It implies that things can happen to the members, but the growth rate cannot drop. Is that the spirit of love? What do the numbers tell us? I can keep bringing many different friends every week and the growth rate for service can be increased. But is that real actual growth? Are lives changed? Then there’s this part whereby if a visitor is “not potential”, you don’t count them – otherwise your attendance suffer – is that the point? What is the point then in counting if we do not count everyone, and if there’s such manipulation of the system to paint a false picture? Isn’t truth, truth? So when it comes to numbers, it can be compromised?
I know my members and I already did our best to reach out, to win souls, to be committed. But it is never enough. And how can I continue to go on when I explained only to be told my best is not enough? And the perception is always “I am not suited to be a CGL because “I cannot handle the pressure”". Really, what pressure is there to serve God? I never had a problem with all the comitments except the manipulation of numbers and the fact that everything we do is first for the target then the wellbeing of the members.
What basis can I use to “understand their weakness”, when they hold positions of authority and not know what is the right thing to do? We deal with people, not machines where we can get the same result by providing the same input.
Dear Handwritings,
I admit that I am not as complicated as you, navive if you may call it … : )
My bottomline is that if you can’t trust the leadership in a simple statement like the membership of the church, you should really highlight your concerns or seek clarification with your pastors. If you are a CGL as you claim, that you are part of the leadership, and you should bother to find out what troubles you.
To make it plain, I am saying that our trust is first in God, who has given us leaders over CHC. And as members of CHC, it is our choice to choose to trust or not trust the credibility of CHC leadership. The system that we have instituted is simply a tool that help us, and at the same time, validate any claims if necessary.
You said ” What i’m proposing is not a sweeping mistrust as you have suggested but a thoughtful provoking insight to really what counts and what matters.”
Honestly if what you are suggesting is a thoughtful provoking insight, I have no issue. Maybe it is just my personal percerption, (and I could be wrong), but the words you have used cast more doubts than provided insight. Maybe you can pause and consider your own writings in this platform, do you think it bring edification or confusion?
In your own words, you said “all these figures and statistics count for nothing when the finished work was accomplished on the Cross.” If that is true, where do you bother to bring up this issue in the first place?
Personally I feel that if you can’t trust a simple factual statement that a Senior Pastor of a church mentioned, then it is probably not worth it to be part of that church, not to even mention serving in the leadership.
God bless.
TKH
@SOT Dean
“Personally I feel that if you can’t trust a simple factual statement that a Senior Pastor of a church mentioned, then it is probably not worth it to be part of that church, not to even mention serving in the leadership.”
Thank you for stepping me down and showing me the door of the church.
Maybe that’s why so many other Church Staff and Leaders have been shown the door or volunteered to leave.
This is probably the clearest sign of the Exit Strategy.
Thank you for your honesty, all the best!
@TKH_Original
“Dear Handwritings,
I admit that I am not as complicated as you, navive if you may call it … : )”
Well, i guess a proper term is called sophisticated.
Too many voices have resonated with what people like Blessedassurance and Terence’s comments.
I have also had members and leaders who communicate that they too feel the same way as them but always do not have a voice nor confidence to stand on their own. Thinking that having a “questionable thought” against the leadership is sin. They chose to keep quiet but silently agree or suffer in silence. For the more persistent ones, they bite the bullet and move on. For others, they sit on the fence and not take sides.
It is truly a church with diversity, with varying angles and levels of beliefs and trusts.
On one hand, we can embrace differences and accept diversity, OR kick them out or shut them off totally.
I just pray and hope that the next generation is not led blindly but have a critical call to make a stand for justice and truth.
Jesus says ‘The truth shall set you free.’
He is the way, the truth, and the life.
Is this organisation a private club or what? Can tell people to trust the management or if not go away?
Even in the management of a club, the members are entitled to query. On one hand, you embrace modern corporate philosophies and manage the church lke a corporate body, on the other hand, management is held tightly within a close circle of “anointed ones”, and others who are not so priviledged are told to trust (just like how a family business is managed).
Amy,
mwahahaha. Actually, churches believe that they are a family! All the corporate bodies and philosophies — pah! They’re just formalities! The church believe it IS a family, and everyone is supposed to love one another. So if you question openly, sure kena hantam!
You are so right to believe that the management is held by a close circle of “anointed ones”! Only anointed people can rise to the top and be a pastor in the church hehe. If you can grow, grow, grow your flock, it means you are anointed!
Wrecking havok since 1000000000 BC
now i know why prophets are often killed.
Luke 13.34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Hi Amy,
The fact is that a church is a religious organisation, not a private club, a political party or a government.
Believe it or not, like it or not – It is led by divine revelation.
Therefore, it is unlike an organisation with a public interest, where everyone can have a say on how it should be run. It is the leaders who cast the vision and set the directions.
It is not a club, there’re no subscription fees or legal obligations of a member, therefore they also do not ‘rights’ to the way the church should be run.
It is up to every believer, whether they believe the vision is from God and decide whether to follow. Nobody forces anyone, it is freewill.
Having said that, it doesn’t mean that the leadership is perfect and without flaws, but if there’re any doubts or queries, there is a biblical way of reasoning according to the Word.
simply no room for a serious discussion. why set up a task force to neutralise every valid arguments or points made here. i suggest you can write down all the valid points and let the senior leadership be aware of the certain concerns members have. Dont use God in the name to cover up for something that makes sense. Dont cheapen the Name.
melvinchen,
tsk tsk tsk, so you’re saying members in church do not have rights at all?
Killing, stealing, and destroying since 100000000BC
Amy,
To add to my previous post. Yes, you correctly said it, only anointed people take the top leadership – in ANY church for that matter.
The church is a church – a divine place, not a club. What do you expect? Not anointed, then just anyone ‘with a voice’ ? Of course not.
melvin chen,
as much as I, S.A. Tan hates it, members are feeding the rice bowl of members by giving to the church. So members have no right to question leaders is it?
Killing, stealing, and destroying since 100000000BC
sorry, i mean FEEDING church leaders
anointedness.. how do you define that? is there a measure if someone is anointed?
by the degree i tremble or shake when i talk to him?
yiba:
Perhaps by the degree they are able to cast my minions out! Arghh I hate that!
Possessing people since 100000000BC
HAHAHAHAH! thats funny one
yes SA Tan,
you got it right: feeding the rice bowls of the church leaders, yet they think that you have no right to question them!
On top of that, they put the pressure on you, the one who feeds them materially, to bring in more “purses” to add to their rice bowls, and tell you that your best is not acceptable or something like that. Chinese saying: Fork out the money, put up your efforts, and get scolding.
I am sure Jesus is not that ungrateful or unloving!
But anyway, I don’t think they would cast you the minions out now, because they need your millions for the new building. :)
Amy…based on what do you say that CHC says ‘your best is not acceptable..?’ From where do you gather such information?
I have been in this church for 13 years and I have never heard such a thing.
And no, its not their rice bowl…the leadership in the church don’t draw a large salary, in fact I know many who have left high-salary jobs to serve for much lower salary.
So they aren’t in need of anyone giving them a rice bowl in the first place. If you’re so free, you can go check out the calibre and type of people on staff, you’ll find people who worked in top auditing and law firms with very high qualifications, yet they have left their careers to serve in this church for much lesser.
@teebh on March 4th, 2010 1:34 am
‘ It’s not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ Says the LORD of hosts. ‘Don’t be amazed and confused! Just know and accept the changes with joy. And may your spirit know a breakthrough and enjoy that, what I will do. For I say to you once again, and again and again, that I am a faithful God, I am a God of grace, I am a God of compassion. You proclaim it, you believe in it, you dream about it, you act upon it, because it will truly come to pass. Yes, you dreamed about a new building, you visualised an iconic auditorium, you confessed to arise and build the sanctuary to grow from glory to glory and from strength to strength, you like its location in the marketplace, for the marketplace and to penetrate the marketplace. You want increase and growth but you have seen nothing yet. The servants that I will lift up will prophesy through the whole country, they will be bold, strong, courageous and wise. They will run through the whole country and beyond, they will plant, and plant, and plant and plant. City for city, town for town. Fear not, for I am with you. It will be a seizure, a battle against the forces of the darkness. But truly, My servants will attain the victory. The victory lies in the hands of My servants. Yes, I’m in a great shape and I started this work in this country and in this church, I sealed it and I don’t allow anybody to interfere in My heavenly deeds. What I have planned, it will come to pass. And I have said, and once again I will say: truly, like the wind on the fields, yes, like a desert wind, like a mighty wind, that blows, I will blow as well on the people of this country and Asia. Yes, in a great shape I started a work in this church, and I will produce what will be truly tremendous and rewarding in harvest. The anointing of victory, the anointing of increase and the anointing of multiplication power will be released on My servants right now.’ – This is what the LORD says. In the name of Jesus! Amen!
–
May I ask which Chapter and Verse in the Bible?
melvinchen,
ahhhh, but remember, the church runs because the members gave willingly. So aren’t your leaders obliged to answer to the members about matters of church.
i mean if they give to the Church of S.A.Tan its okay la. But if they give to CHC, then surely the leaders must give an answer to the members? I think it must be true that the leaders do owe it to the members to answer them?
So what is this about CHC members not having “rights”? Even I treat my minions better!
Torturing people in hell for 1000000000BC
I think you got it wrong…there’s a difference between accountability/transparency and demanding as if you have a right.
I don’t think CHC members have any issues with transparency of the church. We published all the financial statements way back, even before the code of corporate governance was reviewed.
CHC also accounts for all these at the AGM, attended by over 1,000 members with voting rights. These are almost entirely volunteers who have no financial interest in the church.
So its not true that CHC is run by ‘a few people at the top’. There are proper constituitions and laws of Singapore that prevents that.
However, there’s a difference when someone comes in and demand for things to be done a certain way, demand for this and that….as though they have a right to do so – which they do not have a ‘right to demand’. I will even doubt if they are really church members in the first place, or a casual attendee…or a troublemaker.
That’s the difference – its not a public entity, the church is accountable/transparent to those whom it needs to account to, including the govt, executive members, auditors, external advisors, etc.
@yiba-yiba-antenehh on March 4th, 2010 2:29 pm
simply no room for a serious discussion. why set up a task force to neutralise every valid arguments or points made here. i suggest you can write down all the valid points and let the senior leadership be aware of the certain concerns members have. Dont use God in the name to cover up for something that makes sense. Dont cheapen the Name.
FANTASTIC reply. I hope to have more people who have valid points and queries to voice out and speak out.
This is edification.
“To instruct especially so as to encourage INTELLECTUAL, MORAL, or SPIRITUAL improvement.”
(The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition)
everyone can voice out, everyone can ask a question, they will be answered.
In any case, giving is between the people and God. It is an offering to God – not men.
The church leadership is merely a steward, managing the finances and use it to the best it can, to further the Kingdom of God.
It is not a matter of “i give you money…you need to explain to me what you do with it…’ What the church does with it is simple – further the Kingdom of God, manage the daily expenses of the church.
You can approach ANY charity (the church is not a charity though) – any charity that takes donations from the public, and demand to see their accounts, their everything…..they will ask you, by what authority and right do you ask? You can say “I gave my $1.57, now show me where did it go?!”. They will call the police and chase you out.
Its the same…transparency/accountability and rights are seperate issues.
melvinchen,
so the church is accountable/transparent to the goct ,executive members, auditors, external advisors, but not ordinary members who have given their sweat, blood and tears to the church?
Wow I’m stoned brother.
So you don’t agree to the inherent right of every human being to speak and associate? So matters that insist on their inherent rights are troublemakers ah?
No financial interests? Are you sure? Not after they’ve given to the building fund?
So ordinary members no brains, no need to account to is it? I look forward to the AGM where I can see just how accountable the church is. Brother, it is not just about giving information, but being transparent in terms of processes and methods. Liddat then is transparent man.
Wah with a reply like yours, I think the kingdom of S.A.Tan can grow orledy.
Torturing people in hell since 1000000000BC
When I mentioned they have no financial interests, means they do not draw any remuneration or salary from the church, therefore they have no personal financial interest – therefore they are independent from the management and staff in that sense.
I did not say that ordinary members have no brains. I myself is also just a member like the other 32,000+ of them…. but there are various degrees of transparency.
Yes, and at the AGM, the executive members are free to raise questions about processes, methods, or anyhthing. These are all properly conducted and documented according to the law.
So there is a sound system of accountability and transparency in place. No single person or groups of person can mess around.
Wow now comments are under moderation. I guess CHC now wants to filter out all honest questions and comments.
For the above, I meant, “the public has every right to ask for accounts from charities”
melvinchen,
wah you very knowledgeable hor? Don’t you know that the public has every right to ask for accounts from the public? Look at Renci:
http://www.renci.org.sg/Financial/AnnualReports.aspx
http://www.renci.org.sg/Pdf/AR2007-2008.pdf
Renci more accountable than CHC wor, their financial statements are so detailed compared to ours!
Wow CHC really salt and light.
Tempting people since 1000000000BC
wow melvin,
wah you very knowledgeable hor? Don’t you know that the public has every right to ask for accounts from charity? Go to Renci website and look at their financial reports.
Renci more accountable than CHC wor, their financial statements are so detailed compared to ours! Wow CHC really salt and light.
Tempting people since 1000000000BC
You try visit them and ask to inspect their accounts then….see what happens.
CHC is already as transparent as can be…and its not even a charity and does not collect public funds.
melvinchen,
logic 101. If church pay me, church account to me for what? If I give to church, of course church must be accountable to me la.
You still haven’t answered my question: Why is it that an ordinary member, despite pouring his heart and soul into the church, has no right to ask for accountability from the church?
You really sound like the PAP man. They also don’t like the word “human rights”. Maybe you should join the PAP la. Think you’ll do well there.
melvinchen,
no one is asking to inspect anybody’s accounts bro. Anyway renci account report so detailed that you don’t need to inspect already. CHC case is different la. You compare both yourself and let me know la.
But in CHC, when a member question openly, you all go and castigate wor. What is this man. When member demands for more transparency, you all condemn the person. What is this?
If CHC nothing to hide, why can’t be accountable to public? We are salt and light remember? Didn’t your pastor teach you that we must be open and transparent in the way we live? Nothing to hide?
You like forgot your pastor’s teachings hor.
Be salt and light brother. Otherwise kingdom of darkness will grow.
i wonder how are the dealings between CHC and Xtron like.. they are almost as gray as you can get. who sits in the board of Xtron? who takes a salary? hmmmm…
Melvin are you the manager of this blog?
Nope, I’m not….I wish…
Terence said this:
“Hi Amy,
The fact is that a church is a religious organisation, not a private club, a political party or a government.
Believe it or not, like it or not – It is led by divine revelation.
Therefore, it is unlike an organisation with a public interest, where everyone can have a say on how it should be run. It is the leaders who cast the vision and set the directions.
It is not a club, there’re no subscription fees or legal obligations of a member, therefore they also do not ‘rights’ to the way the church should be run.
It is up to every believer, whether they believe the vision is from God and decide whether to follow. Nobody forces anyone, it is freewill.
Having said that, it doesn’t mean that the leadership is perfect and without flaws, but if there’re any doubts or queries, there is a biblical way of reasoning according to the Word.”
not logical leh. Even in the secular world, the church is a religious organisation and its baptised members do have a relationship with the church right? Got check with your legal counsel or not?
Anyway, to blessedassurance73, Melvin seems to me to be the person in charge of the church’s financial affairs (he seems to be always harbouring on the fact that leaders do not take salary etc). And he certainly do not make a good PR person; at this time, a good PR person to pacify all the dissenting members (like TKH with his “I feel sorry for you”) so that the monies will keep flowing to the project.
Anyway, like what Melvin said, leadership is not infallible. Think Moses; he was not allowed to enter the PromiseLand because he disobeyed God.
I must apologise to Terence, the dear young man who started this ball rolling. The statement I copied above was made by Melvinchen.
To S.A.Tan,
If you happened to be a Christian, I am ashamed.
Taking on such a moniker and imagining that that is a veneer of humour.
There is not.
Really.
Besides, your moniker is counter-productive to your purposes.
Believe me. It is.
And this brings me to your posts which surround the same tedious theme.
“mwahahaha. Actually, churches believe that they are a family! All the corporate bodies and philosophies — pah! They’re just formalities! The church believe it IS a family, and everyone is supposed to love one another.” (S.A.Tan)
The church is a Spiritual family. Go read your bible. Even demons believe, and tremble.
“So if you question openly, sure kena hantam!” (S.A.Tan)
Hiding behind a nickname and baying for transparency is at best laughable, & at worst, ludicrous.
Assuming you are a member of the church, though I shudder at the thought of having a S.A.Tan in our midst, have you articulated your concerns to your pastor?
“tsk tsk tsk, so you’re saying members in church do not have rights at all?” (S.A.Tan)
No.
Rights come with responsibility.
The more responsibilities you accept, the more rights you have.
How much responsibilities in this church have you borne to demand rights, S.A.Tan?
If only our sense of ‘rights’ is matched by our sense of responsibility.
“ahhhh, but remember, the church runs because the members gave willingly. So aren’t your leaders obliged to answer to the members about matters of church.” (S.A.Tan)
That is an overly simplistic reasoning. Think about it.
The church runs because willing members gave willingly.
Those who are willing to give are still willing to give. The church continues running.
Those who are not willing to give should not give grudgingly. The church will continue running.
And, if they believe in the Bible, perhaps find a place where they are willing to give.
“i mean if they give to the Church of S.A.Tan its okay la.” (S.A.Tan)
I never cease to be amazed by the extent of your reasoning.
“I think it must be true that the leaders do owe it to the members to answer them?” (S.A.Tan)
“so the church is accountable/transparent to the goct ,executive members, auditors, external advisors, but not ordinary members who have given their sweat, blood and tears to the church?” (S.A.Tan)
“You still haven’t answered my question: Why is it that an ordinary member, despite pouring his heart and soul into the church, has no right to ask for accountability from the church?” (S.A.Tan)
Melvin has. But you have chosen not to hear.
Most of the members who gave willingly are assured by the audits and the checks by the Commissioner of Charities.
And they have their answers and accountability there.
The very few who might have given willingly and do have questions subsequently should show sincerity in finding out the answers.
Sincerity at the most basic level is revealing one’s identity and requesting through email/phone call for a meet-up with a pastor to have your concern addressed.
It is not that difficult.
Sincerity cannot be found in hiding behind anonymity and hurling mud.
I doubt your request will be rejected if you are sincere in seeking the truth.
CHC has nothing to hide.
“Wah with a reply like yours, I think the kingdom of S.A.Tan can grow orledy.” (S.A.Tan)
And with such expressions, do you really expect people to take you seriously?
“You really sound like the PAP man. They also don’t like the word “human rights”. Maybe you should join the PAP la. Think you’ll do well there.” (S.A.Tan)
Let’s leave PAP out of it, shall we?
Or are you also anti-authority/anti-establishment in general as well?
“no one is asking to inspect anybody’s accounts bro” (S.A.Tan)
And your point?
Given such a moniker, S.A. Tan, perhaps you do well to heed Jesus’ call in Luke 4:8
Go figure.
Hey, even if you are right about the membership being 20,000; 30,000 or whatever, does that knowledge changes your life in any way.
Pacify you? Are you a baby? you sure sounded like one with your never ending whining….You enjoy counting headcounts so much, why not go to a higher level, count the number of christians in Singapore and verified with all the churches to ensure that the figure tallys?? Man, if that is your way of living lige abundantly, please get a life!
For the rest of the loving folks out there, know you had great intentions…however, no need to entertain this guy any further!
We don’t have to defend our leadership..they have been tested and proven many times over…..we are not stupid, mindless people who leave our brain at home while we attend church services.
Back to the really matter; let’s Arise and Build!!
Ray
Hello S.A. Tan
I believe the church is open to any questions and queries asked by the members. That, you dun have to worry.
All of the CHC members, just like any other human, have a logical thinking because we have BRAINS.
It is TOTALLY up to us to ask or not to ask, follow or not to follow.
Dun worry about the rights of the members, cause we’re not demanding that, except you. =)
Dear Handwritings,
I am sorry if you perceived that I am kicking you out of the church. I neither have the ability nor the authority to do that.
My reasoning is a simple one: Nobody is forced to join any church. Every believer must exercise their choice, being led by the Holy Spirit, to be committed to a local church. To me, there is no perfect leadership, each church has its strengths and weaknesses, as well as the specific calling from God.
To be part of a local church, the most basic criteria is the element of trust in the leadership that God has appointed in that church. The trust is developed when we look at the fruit of the ministry, as well as the credibility of the leadership in their speech and conduct.
I find it hard to understand why would anyone want to join or stay in a church whom they don’t trust the leadership at all. In the first place, the commitment to the church is a free choice. Nobody can kick you out of the church, or force you to stay in a church.
At the same time, I am not advocating blind obedience or submission, as what you seem to be suggesting. There are always ways to share your concerns in CHC. Nobody need to suffer in silence, as what you seem to imply. You make it sound like we are in a communist party : )
In fact, CHC is progressing and changing many times, based on the constructive feedbacks of many members in different areas of our church life. You said that “having a questionable thought against the leadrship is a sin.” I have to disagree with that, because if it is true, I would have “sinned” many times, and probably like what you claimed, “kicked out of CHC”.
In my years in CHC, there are times where I don’t understand why CHC do certain things. And there are ample occassions where Ps Kong will share with the CGLs of the church, taking the time to explain and elaborate why we are doing what we are doing, which is very helpful for me. There are also times when I talked to certain pastors in private to clarify my doubts. Not one time was I “shot down” because I have a question that need clarification.
From your words and comments, it seems like you used to be in leadership, but I am not sure you are still serving in that capacity currently. If you also have been through negative experiences like blessedassurance73, I would encourage you to share with a pastor or leader whom you can trust. Else I think you will probably find it difficult to stay in CHC, not because anyone will kick you out, rather, how can two walk together unless they agree (Amos 3:3).
May the Lord help you too … God bless!
TKH
I think some people here are obviously trouble makers.. Melvin has already to his best of ability tried to answer the queries and question posed in a reasonable manner. In contrast, the same few people have replied in an irresponsible and disrespectful manner. I think its easy to make comments behind a online persona but where is the basis of the accusations? like Melvin is a church staff, PR person, PAP, giving towards rice bowl, shown the exit etc.
This forum is not even being moderated, all the comments are plain for all to see. I think it shows that our opinions and thoughts are valued. And that means not only those radical opinions and critiques, people who write to defend the church and its integrity, their voices also matter. If the testimonies of the various disappointed voices here are true, then why aren’t the testimonies of the people who have grown up loving this church heard?
So similarly I would say to you: What’s the point of writing in if you don’t want to hear what we have to say?
To blessedassurance: I know it’s not easy to go through such disaapointment and I understand it’s really not easy to serve in the CGL ministry. Just trying to say that the church leadership is not as bad as you think it is, and it could really be just a misunderstanding. I am speaking from years of serving as a CGL, where I have seen the counting of the members and growth percentages as part and parcel of CHC’s excellence in impacting lives. Your ZS was promoted for a reason: They have served longer and put in sweat and blood into this church, and they have went through so much more than us. And most importantly, they have passed the test of God and Pastor Kong to finally to be a ZS. As CGLs we are not in a position to judge, we learn to submit. If you really sense something is wrong you should report to Pastor Kong himself, but check your heart if there is really pure motives. Don’t let offences open a door for bitterness. God Bless.
To S.A. Tan,
Your comments are laughable, I think Philosopher has adequately answer your questions …
Thanks Philosopher. I admit you are more patient than me … : )
God bless …
TKH
nice one philosopher! :) i can’t say it better myself. :)
Jud 1:9 But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse Satan of blasphemy, but simply said, “The Lord rebuke you.” (This took place when Michael was arguing with Satan about Moses’ body.)
Jud 1:10 But these people mock and curse the things they do not understand. Like animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them, and they bring about their own destruction.
Jud 1:11 How terrible it will be for them! For they follow the evil example of Cain, who killed his brother. Like Balaam, they will do anything for money. And like Korah, they will perish because of their rebellion.
Jud 1:12 When these people join you in fellowship meals celebrating the love of the Lord, they are like dangerous reefs that can shipwreck you. [fn] They are shameless in the way they care only about themselves. They are like clouds blowing over dry land without giving rain, promising much but producing nothing. They are like trees without fruit at harvesttime. They are not only dead but doubly dead, for they have been pulled out by the roots.
Jud 1:13 They are like wild waves of the sea, churning up the dirty foam of their shameful deeds. They are wandering stars, heading for everlasting gloom and darkness.
Arise and Build CHC !
Hatcha! For the glory of God !
Go Christians, Go.
I am a member of CHC and I am not worried about my rights. I am also trust that my financial giving is being used appropriately by the leadership.
Dear CHC members, lets voice out our support and trust to the leadership
I was thinking about the CHC-Xtron relationship. Xtron is said a stand alone organization but is run mainly by some distinct members from CHC. They have major financial dealings with CHC which involved hall shifts that cost up to $1 million/shift (quote from pulpit) and other areas/events for CHC. And Xtron does save ALOT on labour wages because CHC will get volunteers to help clear and tear down the hall in the move and that make it really lucrative for Xtron! (where in the world can you work on a million dollar project and being provided hundreds of volunteers to assist you?)
But ultimately, i wonder who is the boss and partners behind it. it seems like a genius business plan. Earning profits with certain factors of volunteerism. I say the brainchild behind this concept do deserve certain social accolades. What a inspiration to many aspiring entrepreneurs indeed!
TO ■yiba-yiba-antenehh on March 5th, 2010 1:52 am
Why don’t you going to the Xtron and finding out? As if we all knowing, here.
it will be naive for me to want to find out what’s meant to be hidden. anyway, just a penny for thought
rephrase ” it will be naive on my side to think i can find out whats meant to be hidden” YIBA YIBA!
like i said, the brainchild is a genius ;)
Hi blessedassurance73,
Personally, I have not encountered such experiences. =) But I don’t rule out the possibility that there might be leader(s) who did that. If I were you, I’ll just share with my leader honestly, rather than remain silent.
I have no idea, whether you are doing fine or not doing well. It’s between you and God. As for your question, if I’ve done my best, my members have given their best, then we’ve really done our best. I will just keep praying and encouraging/inspiring my members. I believe God appreciates our labour, but knowing that shouldn’t hold us back from wanting to press forward.
Honestly, I still believe that numbers tell stories. =) For example, if we don’t bother to keep a count on our sheeps, how do we know how our cell group is doing? If our ZS check with us, and we don’t know, it only shows that we don’t bother. Like what the bible teaches all of us, we ought to be diligent to know the state of our flock. Sometimes, numbers are simply reflection of a condition.)
I’m also in the work force, and it’s not surprising to realize that organizations measure their progress by numbers as well. In meetings, numbers and statistics are always brought up.
Sometimes, when we don’t understand how our leaders think, it’ll be best if we clarify with them. If we convey our queries to them sincerely, not out of attitude of doubt and distrust, I believe they will understand. It’s really all about trusting the hearts of our leaders. They are definitely not perfect, and different leaders have different styles of leadership. But without trust, it’s really hard.
But again, really no offense. =) I’m just sharing what i really believe in. God bless..
TO ■yiba-yiba-antenehh on March 5th, 2010 2:28 am
So what is your point of raising your suspicion here if you think that it’ll be naive for you to find out and the brainchild is a genius.
If you feel so strongly that CHC is a fraud and you are doing everyone a favour, go ahead and raise it with the authority. Otherwise be forever a coward and remain silent.
Opinions are like arseholes;Everyody has got one.
Rephrase …it will be naive if you can find out……
TO ■Amy on March 4th, 2010 9:14 pm
Quote:
I must apologise to Terence, the dear young man who started this ball rolling. The statement I copied above was made by Melvinchen.
Unquote.
You seeming to take a hatred and cynical view towards CHC in all the blogs. Always cutting and (mis)quoting/pasting other peoples’ opinion and add a few of your unworthy words to it.
I undderrstand where you are coming from – dead dried up , un-exciting small legalstic bunch of side stream unknown home church, that cannot stand megahurches or ‘celebrity’ peachers.
By the way, this blog is not a critique forum for bored menopausal hdb void deck widows’ gossip club. If you have no constructive ideas to contribute – go back to your hdb void deck or better still, get a husband and start enjoy living.
■Philosopher,
I take off my turban off and saluting you.
Steady. Solid. Champion.
Hatcha! Sent Mr. S.A.Tan reeling back to pits, yah.
To all:
BayeeSingh (quote):
By the way, this blog is not a critique forum for bored menopausal hdb void deck widows’ gossip club. If you have no constructive ideas to contribute – go back to your hdb void deck or better still, get a husband and start enjoy living.
@TKH_original (quote):
Personally I feel that if you can’t trust a simple factual statement that a Senior Pastor of a church mentioned, then it is probably not worth it to be part of that church, not to even mention serving in the leadership.
Why do you guys sound so much in vengeance and showing people to the direction to the door, or worse still condemning people who have constructive/destructive voices to derogatory living of hdb void decks.
So much for loving people wholeheartedly and church without walls.
Are these the fruits as many have mentioned? Vengeance? Condemnation? Hurling remarks?
@TKH_original:
Whether or not I am a leader serving in full capacity now or in the past does not matter. Like what you said, things are progressing and changing. Perhaps things are changing now.
Hope for the betterment of and for everyone.
May everyone rejoice in the grand announcement of S-CHC :)
Mwahahaha. it seems like the people on this forum doesn’t understand parody. What a poor sense of humour you guys have! And I thought you guys are the least religious folks around, priding yourself in being contemporary blah blah blah. Seems like a veneer to me now.
And philosopher, I am disappointed in you. You don’t speak like one at all. Socrates will be upset. I thought as a smart philosopher, you should be able to distinguish sarcasm and humour from seriousness. I like to mix both together. Go read more philosophy before you even dare to call yourself one ;-)
Just because poor old S.A.Tan here speaks a valid point, do you denigrate what I say based on who I am. That is what you have done, and I am ashamed!
By the way philosopher, stop putting words in MELVINCHEN’s mouth! He clearly said that church members have no rights! You are very good at twisting his words to defend him against me.
If that is the kind of rhetorical skills you have, I am saddened.
You say that because church members gave willingly, then they should not question the church. If they question the church, its best that they leave and give to a church that they won’t question.
What kind of reasoning is this? If church members gave willingly and sacrificially, then it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the church to be transparent in the eyes of the members. Church members who feel that the church is not transparent should have the RIGHT to ask from the church.
Church members, by giving, have fulfilled their RESPONSIBILITY. And despite all the auditing, if they feel that church is insuffiently transparent, they have the RIGHT to ask.
Even Enron, with its auditing process etc, was susceptible to corruption. Even the US President Richard Nixon, despite all the checks and balances in the govt, was susceptible to corruption. So this shows that whatever SYSTEM you have in place is not FULL-PROOF!
So come on, philosopher and posse, you can do better than that.
What if S.A.Tan is a committed member in CHC? So you gonna scold me for being blasphemous? What if I am a ZS or Pastor.
Pah! Humourless religious folks!
Polluting the church since 10000000000BC
To BayeeSingh
Hahaha i think you misunderstood me. I love CHC and they have ISO. They cant be a fraud.
And you see, im an aspiring entrepreneur and im always seeking to improve myself; perfecting the 10,000 hours of practice and keeping a look out for some business ideas that i can work on. Coming across the Xtron concept, i thought it was really a brillant business idea or should i say, the perfect plan.
Maybe im just over zealous but if i can find out more and kick start this idea, i can begin to think of the profits im going to earn! I can also plan to move to another country, probably US. Rub shoulders with the rich and influential.Drive some prettty cars. Oh Life indeed!
Pastor Kong,
Thank you so much for the post. I am looking forward to participating in the Arise and Build :) :)
Indeed, decentralized church building system has a number of drawbacks. For instance, I can’t imagine if the guest speaker should travel around Singapore just to preach in different church venues in a single weekend (Sat-Sun). Since I serve in the bookstore too, things will be more complicated to organize. A friend of mine in bookstore also points out the difficulty in shipping the stuffs. Hence, centralized church building system is better. Since the number of the congregation keeps growing, it logically follows that we need a big church building.
Regards,
YF
wah now bayee singh calls amy’s church “dead dried up , un-exciting small legalstic bunch of side stream unknown home church”. chc very good hor, look down on other churches.
To S.A.Tan
hahah maybe bayee singh is just a negative representative.
Just said that good thing he isnt pastoring because he will treat opinions of his people as arseholes and he will slam his church door in the face of widows wanting to attend church cause he finds them menopausal and gossip too much
yiba: who knows, maybe he’s a mole trying to sabotage CHC good’s name. HAHA.
To S.A. Tan, yiba-yiba-antenehh, Amy
Your point is CHC should be more transparent.
While, members’ point is that CHC is already transparent enough.
So I guess the members dun need you to speak for them.
Please dun worry about the members. They can take care of themselves. Xie xie.
there’s something that all of you gotta think..
despite all the diversity of comments, why do the members still fight for their belief, their church, their pastor?
if you really need to know about the exact information SO MUCH!, just give a call to the CHC office @ 6737-6266. singapore’s telecom charges aint expensive.
To all the members who participated in arise and build campaign for Jurong West building…
I was a backslider and found my way back to God during one of the services in Jurong West at 2003
Thanks so much for all your sacrifices and giving, you have a major part in transforming my life.
Truly it is not about building building, but building lives.
Thank you for building my life.
Lets Arise and Build again so that more lives will be impacted
God bless
Tmr is the Start of Arise and Build weekend!! YAY!! I cant wait!!
Lets stops this debate about ldrship etc etc.. there will always be people that are unhappy i guess, the church cant please everyone..
Wah guitarWU now you’re speaking for all CHC members hor.
rainbow_rice”
Honestly, I still believe that numbers tell stories. =) For example, if we don’t bother to keep a count on our sheeps, how do we know how our cell group is doing? If our ZS check with us, and we don’t know, it only shows that we don’t bother. Like what the bible teaches all of us, we ought to be diligent to know the state of our flock. Sometimes, numbers are simply reflection of a condition.)”
I agree with you that numbers do tell a story. However, it is not a complete story. But the focus is only on this aspect. Like I mentioned, if I can find different people to come for service or cell group every week, such that the overall number increase steadily, does it mean growth?
So how does the numbers reflect a condition? If all 20 in my cg come because they feel obligated, what condition does the number tell?
Our ZS will only check with us why we drop so much. I sure know the state of my flocks, but do my leaders know or be interested to find out? Not really.
ainbow_rice”
I’m also in the work force, and it’s not surprising to realize that organizations measure their progress by numbers as well. In meetings, numbers and statistics are always brought up.”
If the employees have a choice, they will throw away the KPIs. But they have no choice because they are paid to do a job, and their performance is based on the numbers and statistics. That is why often, a company do not progress because we have people trying to paint pretty numbers.
To S.A.Tan
We recognise good humor. And there is an obvious lack of it in your posts.
Feeble attempts at being funny (think ‘wannabe’) perhaps were made.
Though one could find it somewhat, in a word- distasteful
And it is not parody.
We know parody.
Yours is a far cry, really.
Ask anyone who has taste.
And on to your confused remarks:
“And philosopher, I am disappointed in you. You don’t speak like one at all.” (S.A.Tan)
Disappointed in me?
Just because I “don’t speak like one”?
Err…
I marvel at your (lack of) reasoning.
”I thought as a smart philosopher, you should be able to distinguish sarcasm and humour from seriousness.” (S.A.Tan)
You don’t need to be a “smart philosopher” to “distinguish sarcasm and humour”.
When there is humour, of course.
Otherwise, it is just pathetic.
“Just because poor old S.A.Tan here speaks a valid point, do you denigrate what I say based on who I am.” (S.A.Tan)
You have not made any valid point in all of your postings.
Do explicate your point. Coherently, if you can.
And how were you denigrated based on who you are?
And who are you?
“By the way philosopher, stop putting words in MELVINCHEN’s mouth! “(S.A.Tan)
How have I? Melvin does not need you to defend him.
Just as your conceited imagination of members who gave willingly but demand answers beyond the audits and checks by the Commissioner of Charity.
They (if there are any) do not need S.A.Tan to be their advocate here.
They (if there are any) can well represent themselves and request for a meet up with their leaders.
“You say that because church members gave willingly, then they should not question the church. If they question the church, its best that they leave and give to a church that they won’t question.” (S.A.Tan)
I did not say that.
Do read carefully.
Consult others for a second opinion if you need help.
I said:
The church runs because willing members gave willingly.
Those who are willing to give are still willing to give. The church continues running.
Those who are not willing to give should not give grudgingly. The church will continue running.
And, if they believe in the Bible, perhaps find a place where they are willing to give.
It is not quite the same as what you deceitfully reproduced.
Do not accuse me of words that I have not spoken.
“If church members gave willingly and sacrificially, then it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the church to be transparent in the eyes of the members.” (S.A.Tan)
We are.
And we will respond to those who have given willingly and who come forth with questions.
To those who might not have even given and have chosen to hide behind a cowardly moniker to attack and insult the reputation of the church, like yourself, we owe you no answer.
“So this shows that whatever SYSTEM you have in place is not FULL-PROOF!” (S.A.Tan)
I think the word is ‘fool-proof.’
But that is beside the point, perhaps.
“What if S.A.Tan is a committed member in CHC? So you gonna scold me for being blasphemous? What if I am a ZS or Pastor.” (S.A.Tan)
You are not an immature child, well, at the very least, I hope you are not a child.
Nobody is going to ‘scold’ you even if you not “a committed member in CHC”.
We reason.
Contact one of the Pastor by email/phone through the church.
Show basic sincerity in wanting answers.
Meet and talk.
Hi blessedassurance73,
I think its really good you have a heart for the people, which is very important and I believe that was the reason why you served as a CGL.
Like we can all agree, numbers do tell a story. May I suggest to you, numbers will also tell if there are improvements to be made with the cell-group or leader? Like you have mentioned, if they feel obligated, numbers will dwindle…etc. So numbers do tell a story in more than one way…
In any case, it is really not the numbers. Perhaps in the past, when we were less mature as a church, it was not as clearly articulated, but from what I see these days, having spoken to several CGLs, none of them are pressured and there’re no quotas to meet. As can be testified by other CGLs who posted.
However, let these past issues not hinder your walk with God, I believe you have a heart for the people and there’re certainly many ways you can serve God and His kingdom. :)
I totally agree with Philosopher…
if SA.Tan or anyone is sincere about wanting an answer, there’re many avenues to get queries addressed – that is if its a genuine sincere concern.
Publicly posting accusations, suggestive and even defamatory comments is unfair to the church and doesn’t get you anywhere near having your concerns addressed. It only discredits your own character and motives.
@Terence Lee:
May I share my opinion about your post? :)
“By quoting 1 Chr 22:5, pastor seems to be invoking an Old Testament mindset where God literally dwelt in the Temple of Jerusalem and it was necessarily to therefore beautify it and adorn it with all sorts of precious materials. In the New Testament however, we see a shift away from the Temple and into the people.
The Church is no longer a building; it is the Body of Christ, made manifest in Christians. We are the church of the Living God, and He dwells in us. Should we therefore focus on constructing a magnificent building when what we should be doing is to build people? Are we stuck in an Old Covenant mindset of “building God a great house” when in fact God’s presence is no longer restricted to a physical temple?
I would challenge any believer to quote me a New Testament verse where Jesus would justify building a glorious building for the Kingdom. If Jesus isn’t placing much emphasis on a physical structure, why should we? Let us glorify God in our good deeds, rather than magnificent monument that will fade to dust in time.”
Indeed, New Testament (NT) does not talk often about physical church building and it emphasizes more toward the people. Also, indeed Lord Jesus is not placing much emphasis on physical structure. However, He never stops/forbids us from doing so either. “Lord Jesus does not emphasize on physical building” is not necessarily equal to “Building Fund should not be done”. After all, there is nothing wrong in building God a big church building. In fact, building a big church building for God benefits our spiritual life (more explanation below).
There are two main characters associated with building the Temple of God in the Old Testament (OT): King David and King Solomon. The purpose of building the Temple was not mainly to restrict/contain God’s presence, as King Solomon himself acknowledged (2 Chr 6:18, NKJV). The main purpose was to honor/glorify the name of LORD, as King David stated (1 Chr 29:16, NLT). With this purpose in hand, King David earlier had stated that the Temple had to be magnificent (1 Chr 22:5, NKJV). So, the bottom line of the story is that we can glorify God through physical building.
Why should the church be big and magnificent? Pastor Kong preached on it before (I can’t remember which weekend, unfortunately). Roughly, the sermon was like this: Should the Prime Minister stay in an old, rundown 1+1 HDB flat? Obviously, no. The Prime Minister deserves a place much better than that. A place of resident represents the dignity of the one who stays in it. Since God has the highest dignity, won’t it be more honoring the King of kings and the Lord of lords if we build Him a big and magnificent and iconic church? (please note that my emphasis is on the dignity of resident, not on the presence of the resident).
Having said that, I don’t deny that indeed there are small churches in poor villages. Can the church members still glorify God through the building? Yes, they can. Although they may not have the finance, at least they should ensure that the church building is clean.
We can imagine one day 10 years later: a non-believer sees our iconic building. He/she will definitely be amazed on how God prospers us, how God helps us to be creative and be generous people. Clearly, this is a good testimony to the world out there.
Since NT emphasizes on people, Building Fund is a good way to build spiritual life. As we build God’s house, He will build our house (2 Sam 7:11, NLT). Although King David was only planning to build the Temple, the LORD already promised to him that He would build his house. This promise was fulfilled in Lord Jesus, the Son of David. And, it is still true for us today. We have been hearing testimony almost every week on how lives are restored, marriages strengthened, faith increased, and family salvation in the Building Fund season.
To me, Building Fund is a kind of spiritual exercise like fasting. When I fast, I feel hungry and I have no strength. I then lean on God’s strength. Similarly, as I give to Building Fund, I learn to lean on God’s provision, not on bank account or investment.
Indeed, any building can fade away in time. However, what God requires is our obedience. According to Pastor Kong himself, this church building is the vision God puts in his heart (by the way, I personally trust Pastor Kong. Whether or not the vision is really from God, it is beyond the scope of this blog since it is not possible to prove or disprove it here). Hence, we simply obey the Lord when we build Him a house. What kind of house is it? It should be centralized (decentralized has many drawbacks), big (to accommodate the number of people), and magnificent (for the glory of God). There is possibility that this magnificent building will fade away in time. However, it is beyond our control; it is then in God’s control.
So, Terence, hopefully my opinion can answer a part of your questions. :) :)
melvinchen”. May I suggest to you, numbers will also tell if there are improvements to be made with the cell-group or leader? ”
Like? Be more result oriented? “strongly encourage” them more?
melvinchen”Like you have mentioned, if they feel obligated, numbers will dwindle…etc. So numbers do tell a story in more than one way…”
That was not what I said. If I want, I can be a very hard leader and scold them if they cannot make it to service and cg, like what my ZS used to do. And many will be obligated and turn up – but what will that mean? The numbers are there but does it mean growth? A leader inspires and not govern through fear.
They will just continue to be there for fear of being scolded or “counseled”. Is it still happening today? I keep a lot of sms and email from my ZS and Zone secretary. Nothing like what the rest of the leaders said seem to imply that it is not happening. From attendance, to giving in building to demanding why tithing is low, BF giving is low, attendance drop, etc. I can show it is happening.
I live today in shame because people perceive me that I stepped down because I cannot “handle pressure of leadership” or “I have no capacity, no faith”. But is that true?
My conclusion of the matter is that many choose not to say anything or they have been so controlled they take it as a norm. Like what TKH said, if we don’t like how the church do things, the door is always open. But will that help?
We have been trying to breakthrough 30,000 but to date we still struggle without progress. Recently there are so many big days by the different zones – but is it helping? All the ZS are asking why after so many big days the attendance is still not growing although the attendance shoot up during the big day weekends. Is looking at the numbers alone going to truly help us grow?
aiyoyo,
philosopher and melvin ah, what difference does it make? What someone puts his identity on the line and comments here, you all accuse him of having ulterior motives.
When someone comments anonymously, you also assume they have ulterior motives. Talk about being judgmental.
And philosopher, thanks for correcting my grammar ar. Very welcome indeed. Can I hire you as my English teacher? I can only speak broken engrish.
Yaya, humour that is not funny to you becomes pretentious. As if you own the world. Maybe you’re the one with no taste? LOL.
I have decided it is pointless to debate you, philosopher. We obviously don’t see eye to eye. And by the way, what makes you think the anonymous people who comment here have not go to their leaders for questions? Maybe they have?
Melvin and philosopher, what makes YOU think that I have not done so, or am doing so? Talk about judging. We are all guilty of it here, you and me. So stop sounding so righteous already. I’m S.A.Tan, so I can’t be righteous. hehe.
YF,
I applaud you for addressing my questions honestly, without casting aspersion to my motives. I think you set a good example of how CHCers should address anonymous comments, which unfortunately, I can’t speak for everyone in this forum.
Many CHC defenders here accuse critics for writing anonymously, but they themselves are anonymous, except for one melvinchen. Seems like we all have a habit of not living up to our words. So CHC defenders, if you to say something, be bold and put your name to your comments!
hi blessedassurance73,
I think there are some misunderstandings somewhere. That is not what I meant. I do not mean by looking at the numbers, then get the CGLs to be more result oriented or scold the members.
None of that sort. Seriously, once again, the CGLs/ZSs have no quotas and don’t pressure anyone for attendance or anything….
I really feel sorry about your experience. I understand what you mean – seriously. I grew up in church in an era of very strict discipline too. The church is constantly growing, maturing and improving, what you have experienced before is like one of the growing pains that many of us experienced too. Remember those days we STRICTLY pray an hour a day?
Those were the early years, but we grew….that’s what makes the foundations of this church, our spiritual discipline, tithing, being serious about coming to church, etc.
Over the years as we grow, the style of managment and leadership has grown and matured, and still growing. In the past it was harder to articulate the intentions.
These days, there’s alot more interaction, discussion, two-way communication. No pressuring, scolding or harsh words anymore.
How about taking a step at a time, and get to know the ministry and leadership all over again… :)
Well…S.A. Tan, if you have approached a leader/pastor, they would have addressed and reasoned and answered your questions.
You wouldn’t be asking them again like you never heard the answers before.
Well….Terence, being un-annonymous has its drawbacks, I’m sure you know better than i do…you can be notorious overnight. Not everyone wants to handle that kind of attention. So I respect even the annonymous ones – not so much for those who assume satan’s name though…that one’s not funny.
haha. i wouldn’t call myself notorious.
well, but you can’t enforce that as what others perceive you to be.
well, i am both liked and hated for what I write, I’ll tell you that ;-)
i’m quite sure of that…even satan has his fans.
To S.A.Tan,
“I have decided it is pointless to debate you, philosopher. We obviously don’t see eye to eye.”
“I’m S.A.Tan, so I can’t be righteous.: (S.A.Tan)
In that, we can agree.
To Terencelee,
“Many CHC defenders here accuse critics for writing anonymously, but they themselves are anonymous, except for one melvinchen.” (Terencelee)
The issue is not about writing anonymously.
It is about asking questions and expecting answers while hiding behind anonymity.
You seem like a fairly intelligent young man. I am sure you know it is different.
The questioner owes it to the respondent, be it as an expression of civility or sincerity, to, at the very least, identify onself.
And perhaps, like you, once identified through your email request to meet a pastor, can have a face-to-face meeting arranged.
I hope it went well.
melvinchen on March 5th, 2010 3:51 pm (Quote)
i’m quite sure of that…even satan has his fans.
WOW! Calling a fellow brother in christ satanic? I think that’s absurd.
Totally lost creditability for you my friend. It seems like SA.Tan has cast his influence upon you.
I honestly can’t imagine a place where brothers kill brothers, kick one another and out to destroy.
Mene, Tene, Peres.
Peace out.
nope, i didn’t say he is satanic, I meant everyone will have people who like them or hate them.
Remember, in the book of James, the author explained how will the mere belief of God’s existence do good to you – even Satan believes and trembles. Did He meant that everyone is satanic?
Likewise, everyone will have people who hate or like them. It doesn’t mean anything, even satan has fans.
Menopausal Arseholes:
SA Tan, yiba-yiba-antenehh, Handwritings, Amy.
TO S.A. Tan
If you think you represent God and/or voice of CHC people – you failed. You neighter have the linguistic ability or wisdom or thinking ability to do so.
If you think you represent satan and humour; satan is probably the only one laughing with you. The rest of us laughs at you or are simply too astonished by your stupidity and remains silent.
Heyoz, chill guyz!
Been out of town so long and suddenly the blog is alive again. Interesting debates….
Whether it’s real figures, facts, allegations… or not I don’t think it’s any of our business. It’s only for the top leadership to settle, if there is an issue, if, at all.
Tomorrow results is out – so let’s stay tuned there. Why not let’s share our thoughts about the new building?
A) Marina Fly Kite Area
B) Marina Sands Convention
C) Suntec City Convention Centre
D) Singapore Indoor Stadium
E) Any others? (Padang, Esplanade… ?)
I would really like B). hahaha really would be an integrated casino church resort. What do you guys think?
haha… indoor stadium is almost definitely out.
It should be somewhere, right smack downtown in the marketplace.
Fly Kite area = no food, no carpark….unlikely…
I would think its either B or C.
Esplanade is only a 2,000 seater.
There’re 3x existing 12,000 seaters around the area
- Suntec Convention Centre
- Stadium by the Bay
- Marina Sands Convention Centre
Or maybe its a seperate new development…somewhere around there….. haha.
TO ■yiba-yiba-antenehh on March 5th, 2010 10:49 am
You are so twisted in what you say of your mouth that there is no chance of success for you even if you are able to copy the CHC model. You don’t have the proper atttude nor have the integrity or character to begin with.
You don’t have the guts to follow thru what you alleged but merely to cause suspicion and gossips.
You are a coward and yes, ‘menopausal’ in every way.
Melvin: There’re 3x existing 12,000 seaters around the area
- Suntec Convention Centre
- Stadium by the Bay
- Marina Sands Convention Centre
Stadium by the Bay meaning the National Day Parade Floating Platform? Outdoor church? wow. Interesting, imagine a floating pulpit and platform. And we can ‘rent’ to the government for NDP and YOG opening ceremonies!
I really do hope it’s somewhere new – Suntec seems a very “existing” building. It’s just quite bewildering to see a church buying over a pretty-much established building.
Do you think we will tear down the place and rebuilt? Or just do some refurbishment and renovation?
eh…i have no idea..those 3 are just my guesses….
oh…correction, floating platform’s capacity is 30k…anyway that will require conversion with some kinda shelter, so ruled out also…
so, i’m just guessing….suntec/sands/somewhere new around there.
Hmm, most likely Sunday service people will watch the announcement online tomorrow. Then, on Sunday they may pretend to be happy and shocked when they hear the exact location from Pastor Kong =P =P
@Terence Lee:
Thanks a lot for the compliments :)
Regards,
YF
I was working my calculations and realised the if i can manage to set up a similar-Xtron concept company (provided i have a church which can constantly give me million dollar deals), in a couple of years i indeed can lead a luxurious lifestyle in U.S.
Probably using my company fund (or the church im working with can sponsor) to invest in a house for myself right smack in downtown LA. (that should cost a couple of millions but shouldn’t be a problem.)
Have hollywood celebrities as my neighbors (thats really wooolala!).
Settle my family over there, send my kid to International School.
Buy a couple of cars (Ok, let just say 5 cars. 5 cars ok!) to whizz around in LA.
Fly around the world each year. Maybe say… clock 1,000,000km each year.
This is the Perfect Plan.
To Bayee Singh
Maybe you wore your turban too low and can’t see what i have typed nor find out clearly what were my intentions
This is my first post regarding CHC-Xtron
“I was thinking about the CHC-Xtron relationship. Xtron is said a stand alone organization but is run mainly by some distinct members from CHC. They have major financial dealings with CHC which involved hall shifts that cost up to $1 million/shift (quote from pulpit) and other areas/events for CHC. And Xtron does save ALOT on labour wages because CHC will get volunteers to help clear and tear down the hall in the move and that make it really lucrative for Xtron! (where in the world can you work on a million dollar project and being provided hundreds of volunteers to assist you?)
But ultimately, i wonder who is the boss and partners behind it. it seems like a genius business plan. Earning profits with certain factors of volunteerism. I say the brainchild behind this concept do deserve certain social accolades. What a inspiration to many aspiring entrepreneurs indeed!”
and you said “You don’t have the guts to follow thru what you alleged but merely to cause suspicion and gossips.”
Tell me in what way have i alleged against the working relationship between CHC-Xtron? Are these not the facts?
I didn’t think there is anything to suspect because they are lawful dealings. Unless you think its suspicious?
I am just very impressed by the genius works of the brainchild behind Xtron. Like any aspiring entrepreneurs, i always enjoy reading stories of successful entrepreneurs. Just like those testimonies shared on stage in church. There is no malice. Im just a fan wanting to meet his idol.
So Bayee Singh, i hope my “arsehole” will help you to see better. Maybe you are the one suspicious of this whole thing
<>
” arsehole” (quote Bayee Singh “Opinions are like arseholes;Everyody has got one.”)
Here:
Quote:
■yiba-yiba-antenehh on March 4th, 2010 5:47 pm
i wonder how are the dealings between CHC and Xtron like.. they are almost as gray as you can get. who sits in the board of Xtron? who takes a salary? hmmmm…
Unquote.
Eat your own “arsehole”
TO ■yiba-yiba-antenehh on March 5th, 2010 10:56 pm
Quote:
…So Bayee Singh, i hope my “arsehole” will help you to see better.
Unquote.
Hmmmm…. I can definately read your two post above. And tell what you are trying to insinuate.
Maybe you want to bent over and let me have a through inspection of your “opinions”. No pun intended.
Hi wow it’s really interesting to read all the updates. I’m not going to get embroiled in the name calling..
@melvin chen and rara-roma: Yes I think it should be Marina Bay area!!! So excited.. less than 24 hours away!
Haha, ya.. Should be around there ! 14 hours away!
TOday’s THE DAY!
Woohoo! Can’t wait for the annoucement! It’s been 21 years!
The WHOLE house will rejoice together for what God has done for us and the breakthrough that HE has given us!
How awesome is this place! The Gate of Heaven! I love Your house….
1 Corinthians 14:38-40
But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
Let all things be done decently and in order.
1 Corinthians 14:1-3
Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
1 Corinthians 14:5
I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
1 Corinthians 14:24-26
But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all.
And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.
How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
“The SUN of righTEousness shall arise with healing in His wings. You are the light of the world. A CITY that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. The Lamb is its light. Truly the light is sweet, and it is pleasant for the eyes to behold the sun. The righteous will shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom. We will see in this City an even greater Harvest as the baton (from YFGC) is passed to you.”
Woo Hoo!!! So exciting…:) Finally going to find out where is the property!
Wherever it may be, it is our prayers come true! For the last 5 years, we have been talking about it, praying about it… This weekend is gong to be a huge milestone for CHC!
Thank you God for the new place!
Thank you Pastor Kong and the Building Committee for your wisdom and guidance!
No matter what others may say, this is our CHC moment! Let’s soak in the joy, excitement… Let’s CELEBRATE as we Arise and Build!
I got say somethingg can?
I also got read your daily devotion article “Secure In Yourself”. Link is here http://www.konghee.com/www/2010/02/secure-in-yourself-2/comment-page-1/#comment-5287
Ehhhh Ah Kongh ahhh! This whole article, “Secure in Yourself” is direct copy, word for word, of article from Leadership Bible one! I got read before in Leadership Bible article on week 37. Is on servant leadership. Donch believe ahhh? Go see page 1258 of Leadership Bible, sure can see. Article is can see at John 13 cos is about servant leadership of Jesus. How can you got copy so directly one? You got Doctor of Theology tio boh? They sure got teach you, if want copy others’ articles also must give credit to original source tio boh? I donch got see any credit given lehhh?
Some more you got write under daily devotion! Devotion article is always for what God say to you when you got read Bible and pray right right? So how can you got write this article here? This one is not from your OWN daily devotion tio boh?
I oso got read your daily devotion article Thomas Faith.. link is here one http://www.konghee.com/www/2010/03/thomas-faith/
ehhh Ah Kong ahhh. The first two paragraphs is got word for word copy of character profile on Thomas from Leadership Bible. You got check Page 1271 of Leadership Bible? Is really got word for word OK? How can daily devotion article be copy from others work ahh? Doc of Theology sure got study that if copy others’ work sure must also give credit to original work, tio boh? I no got see you got give any credit here lehhh,, so how?
On this rock we build our church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it!
Hallelujah! Suntec Convention here we come!
To ■michaellowisback on March 6th, 2010 4:35 pm
By calling the senior pastor “ehhh Ah Kong ahhh” you totally show no respect for a preacher.
If you think you are so goddamn smart in theology, why don’t you open up your own bible school and start teaching some real students? Instead of trying to correct the Senior Pastor of CHC all the time.
And if you think you are so anointed, you should start your own church and show us how clever your preaching is…maybe you’ll be so good…people might just flock to your church.
No need to do small time hijack to boost your ego on your knowlege and brand of theology. And the form of language – hokglish you use do not make you look good at all.
And if you think you are doing God a great favor by putting down or belittling a Senior Pastor of another church, think again; without compassion and love for people , all your theology shall come to zero.
So, you choose to be Bandit Michael Low or Pastor Michael Low; my hope for you is the latter
@michaellowisback – the name calling is unnecessary. Every person deserves the minimum respect, including the Pastor of a Church.
To ALL commentators who think they know the bible very well and started to judge the man of God. Becareful with what you said. If you are a Real Christian and you love Jesus, one day you will really regret it.
The measurement for you to check whether you are the right person to judge other people is based on your fruits.
OK, SHOW US WHAT YOU GOT! HOW MANY FRUIT DO YOU HAVE? HOW MANY OF YOUR FRIEND COME TO JESUS BECAUSE OF YOU?
If you don’t have more than 30 peoples come to Jesus because of you, don’t judge! It’s a proof that you are still baby Christian. That’s it. No matter how much you know about bible, you are still baby Christian. You ara a fruitless Christian.
If you think you really love Jesus and study your bible and practice it in your life, you should at least have 10 friends come to Jesus because of you. But I don’t think that’s the case.
In my 15 years of Christian life this what I learnt about judging other people: What ever measurement I used to judge other people, it was being used to judge me back.
If you think the Pastor is not right, let other man of God talks to him. Definetily not you, baby Christian.
If you don’t have more than 30 peoples come to Jesus because of you, don’t judge! It’s a proof that you are still baby Christian. That’s it. No matter how much you know about bible, you are still baby Christian. You are a fruitless Christian.
To be exact, you are just a parasite Christian. You don’t have any fruit and yet you want to destroy other fruitful Christians. You are envy, you are jelaous and you are shallow.
Bah! Get a life man!
About Suntec, I still remember I got lost due to its 5 towers … and there was a funny moment I still remember precisely when askom sent me for bea training with pak erwin which we had to extend on the weekend. I wanted to go to city harvest church BUT due to not knowing the difference between Singapore Expo and Suntec Expo and i thought “the biggest church here can never be located in such a far place like airport isn’t it?”
So, i went to suntec expo… which was near by our park view hotel in beach road. but… hey i did not see any crowd or loud bands ?? so i asked to security guard..”where is city harvest church?” … he looked confuse … so i asked again “is this singapore expo?” …. hahaha he answered me .. “ooh this not singapore expo….this is suntec expo. singapore expo is near the airport, u have to take mrt there.” WHAAAAATT!!
and so that was my first attempt to CHC about 2 years ago and it failed.
@michaellowisback:
I actually went to link you provided, and you included this line as well –
“Some more you write under daily devotion! Devotion article is always for what God say to you when you got read Bible right? So how can you got write this article here? This one is not from your OWN daily devotion tio boh?”
Tone aside, I think perhaps there’s a misunderstanding here. If I’m not wrong, daily devotionals are publications which provide a specific spiritual reading for each calendar day. They tend to be associated with a daily time of prayer and meditation, ie they are meant to strengthen one’s Christian faith and to help in your devotion or daily quiet time.
Some hardcopy publication examples in Singapore would include Our Daily Bread, Young People’s, etc. They are usually found in your regular Christian bookshops and they publish maybe once a month or twice, depending on the publication. Nowadays it is not uncommon to find “Devotionals” online through blogs and websites, which are meant for the same purpose as well.
In this case, Pastor Kong’s personal blog posts are different from his Daily Devotionals. Usually in hardcopy publications sources are listed, but perhaps it is more difficult to do it online. Whichever way, I’m quite sure it is not intended to be his original writing/publication as it is offered FREE online for all as a spiritual reading, to encourage and to edify. :)
On a side note, I went to Suntec City Convention Centre immediately after Service 1 with my cellgroup and its magnificent! @vmelody – I think you’ll really like it when we move there in Feb 2011! Cya! :)
@BayeeSingh
are you pastor kong using a nom de plume? you seem to write like him, have similar opinions as him, and are very defensive of him.
i salute you for your love and respect for your senior pastor. but i feel that you should try to be a tad more polite here. this is a public domain and as a church, we should be embracing everyone, even people who don’t agree with us. :)
Hmm, if michaellow’s allegations are true, it is quite serious indeed. I hope Pastor Kong himself will clarify on this matter. It is never justifiable to lift entire passages out of a publication without crediting a source. Let’s hope these allegations can be swiftly addressed otherwise it might fester and blow out of proportion.
Michaellow,
if you so smart, why don’t you put up scans of the Leadership Bible at the corresponding page and put it online for the whole world to see! Compare and contrast it with pastor kong’s devotional. It is not right to lift passages out without attributing. Even university students know that!
To ■TKH_genuine on March 7th, 2010 1:21 am
Quote:
■TKH_genuine on March 7th, 2010 1:21 am
@BayeeSingh
are you pastor kong using a nom de plume? you seem to write like him, have similar opinions as him, and are very defensive of him.
i salute you for your love and respect for your senior pastor. but i feel that you should try to be a tad more polite here. this is a public domain and as a church, we should be embracing everyone, even people who don’t agree with us. :)
Unquote.
Michael Low ( nom de plume) stop your nonsense! Quit impersonating TKH! I think no cure for you.
Pastor Kong is ot Punjabi, I am.
TO ■terencelee on March 7th, 2010 3:51 am
a.k.a. ■S.A.Tan on March 7th, 2010 4:03 am
The door is still there. You may want to join ~BenJen who is now happier @ ROCK i.e. the other BaiYee’s church.
No point hanging around play opposion party.
wah very good ah accuse me of being someone else. Nothing better to do ah.
terencelee on March 7th, 2010 3:51 am
BayeeSingh on March 7th, 2010 4:17 am
Maybe you are Terence? I also can play games with you.
I don’t wanna bother NCC la. I like to disturb CHC.
Typo correction…
■BayeeSingh on March 7th, 2010 4:39 am
TO ■terencelee on March 7th, 2010 3:51 am
a.k.a. ■S.A.Tan on March 7th, 2010 4:03 am
The door is still there. You may want to join ~BenJen who is now happier @ the ROCK i.e. the other BaiYee’s church.
No point hanging around, bitter, playing opposition party.
Dear michaellow,
Your post is irrelevant to the topic here. You should report to the relevant authority if you felt there is any breaking of copyright laws or plagiarism.
God bless.
TKH
Dear michaellow
I agree with TKH_original. Pls dont post irrelevant post here. This topic is abou the building. Thanks.
ohh dear… messed up place.. rather then trying to find pastor kong’s mistake whether the money should use for the building or charity.. why don’t u guys do something any better.. he is a servant of God and he received a word from God.. so if you want to find out about that.. come to City Harvest..and join us for the time of praise and worship.. and of course.. the word of God.. anyway..!! as we can see.. the new building is really for marketplace to penetrate the market place..
Pastor Kong, thank you for all the things you have done. I am very glad that I accepted Christ on 25th December 2009. I am now living with peace everyday with God by my side. :)
Wow, such a long thread of comments! It took me about an hour to go through them. Truly controversial!
I’ve been to many christian churches, not because I’m church-hopping, but because our family has been relocating every 2 years in Phils.
And I can say, there’s nothing like City Harvest Church.. God is so alive in this place.. Be it at JW or Expo or RW.
I love Pst Kong. He reminds me of King David: A man’s after God’s own heart. And if there’s any mistake he has done, God will surely correct and chasten him down on his knees in repentance (even before it’s exposed to the public).
Since I came to CHC in 2002, I’ve declared this my spiritual family. And I will flow with the vision of the leaders and the church no matter what.
Suntec, it’s gonna be a grand celebration in 2011!!! Well, we’ve been celebrating all this time! Yahoo! It’s gonna be magnificent!
We at CHC will continue to shout out Jesus’ fame all throughout the world! All of you are welcome to join us! (and welcome to join us back)
I can say something or not?
Dear bayeesingh
I very sorry if you got think I not respect your ps kong. He not my pastor so how I can call him Ps Kong ahhh. You know hokkienpeng is hokkkienpeng, old wood is old wood. My pastor oso sometimes I just got call name only
This one I not smear him OK? I just got wonder why yr pskong article on ‘Secure in yourself’ is same word for word article on ‘servant leadership’ in page 1258 of leadership bible. If you donch know which Bible I got refer to, this Bible is where I got read article on page 1258, http://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Bible-REF/dp/0310922240
You got say “without compassion and love for people , all your theology shall come to zero.” Is true but I let God judge whether I got love for people or not. He is only righteous judge. But if got your love and compassion surely will not use another person’s word from God and make like his own word from God, tio boh? God’s Word also got say ‘without obedience, sacrifice is meaningless”, tio boh? You go read 1 Samuel 15 can? Saul say he save best Amalekite cattle for sacrifice to God but still got rejected by God. No matter is what sacrifice we got give to God, still must make sure hands and heart is clean one. So Bible got warn us Ecc 5:1 ‘Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. Go near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools, who do not know that they do wrong.’
I also sorry if you think I got say your pskong got no integrity. Hokkien peng is not so clever to use words so sometime is too direct one. Maybe your pastor kong got forget to give credit to original source of article? Is better he got clarify tio boh? Not people later got accuse he got lack of integrity. If he can got come out say he forgot to give credit to Leadership Bible as source, I oso not mind. Oso must not forget, daily devotion article on ‘Thomas faith” have first two paragraphs same as profile study in Thomas, page 1271, Leadership Bible. Not difficult to explain tio boh?
Dear blessedassurance ahh
I got call your pastor names ahhh? What name I got call him ahhh? Surely, not difficult to check leadership Bible page 1258, 1271 see if I got speak truth tio boh? I got respect him which is why I not understand why his devotion article is word for word copy. If can prove to me article not found in page 1258, 1271 (first two paragrapsh only) of leadership Bible, then I no need to write anything about this anymore, sure one
Dear Paulzhang
This point I got write is not about theology OK? Is just about why same article got find somewhere is got written here as daily devotion article here? Is about publishing article never got give credit to original source. BTW hor, your ps Kong article same article is oso got found here, word-for-word here… http://pastorjon.blogs.com/victory/2009/11/servant-leadership-john-13117.html. You got see date of posting Nov 30, 2009.. So How?
Maybe I oso baby Christian, but this baby Christian got read the Bible everyday OK? You got read everyday? Or maybe you got legalistic thinking as long as got give tithes, worship God on Sunday is OK ahhh? You want call me knowledge-filled Christian is up to you ahhh? My deeds already got known by God, I no need to boast before man, tio boh? I baby Christian or not baby Christian is no matter. Matter is whether you got willing heart to face truth here see if I lie or not lie. This one is got easy to prove. you oso can go check Leadership Bible page 1258, 1271 see if I got tell truth.
Even if Pr 6 student got see college professor publish article say he write one but actually got write by others, he can speak out tio boh? Proverbs 16:13, “Kings take pleasure in honest lips; they value a man who speaks the truth.” Or maybe for me now devotees all so upset they got hope Proverbs 20:2 “A king’s wrath is like the roar of a lion; he who angers him forfeits his life.” Is no matter, God is my vindicator tio boh?
Dear Jinglebelle
I got thank you for your gracious post “In this case, Pastor Kong’s personal blog posts are different from his Daily Devotionals. Usually in hardcopy publications sources are listed, but perhaps it is more difficult to do it online. Whichever way, I’m quite sure it is not intended to be his original writing/publication as it is offered FREE online for all as a spiritual reading, to encourage and to edify. :)”
I sorry but cannot agree. Is so difficult to credit original source online mehhh? Just have to say where post is coming from like maybe say “from page 1258, leadership Bible, leadership principle: servant leadership.” Anyway, my pastor always got say must give credit to original source always. This one is God’s Word to person who got write the article, is not God’s word to the one who copy.
his one is minimum standard for Bible college students. Once they caught for saying other people work is their own writing, they got sacked straightaway. You oso got read in papers abt uni people take articles from internet and pass as their own is wrong.
Si like dat how if CHC BTC students got copy internet article for their research papers? How if the CHC preachers copy others preachers’ sermons ahhh? So CHC is ok to rip songs from CDs and pass around when do worship practice ahhh? All is not for profit tio boh? Is just mean to edify tio boh? Your pastor kong got Doctor of Theology. He sure got know seminary is very strict if got copy other people’s work and say is own work
Whether got offer free online is beside the point. College students who got pass others work like their own still get sacked even if not got make any profit. If purpose is to edify then so hard to give 10 words to credit source mehhh? Some more article on Thomas Faith first two paragraphs is oso copy. Why oni two paragraphs ahhhh then add own words ahh?
Dear TerenceLee
This one you can say is allegation oni. But not difficult to prove is got truth or got no truth. You can go Bible bookstore ask for Leadership Bible. Editor is Sid Buzzell. This is Bible I got refer to here ‘http://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Bible-REF/dp/0310922240’.. Article is can see in page 1258, just after bible text John 13. Article on “Thomas Faith” first two paragraphs is same as article on Thomas on page 1271 of Leadership Bible. Is at John 20 bible text. This one is not difference of theological opinion. Is matter of why article got print in daily devotion section here but never got credit original source
Dear Mr S A Tan
I not so clever but think I no need to scan to put here. Just go bible bookstore see page 1258, 1271 of Leadership Bible, see if what I got say is true or not. After that just come back and call me a liar lahhh and say article is not got found in leadership Bible editor Sid Buzzell
Dear TKH_original
This one tactic got usual of what you do. Distract when cannot deny :)… hehehehe. I tell you all lahh so maybe you can help me ask your Pskong clarify tio boh? Like that so hard mehh? This one is his reputation tio boh? If he got really forget to credit, is ok what, he just need to publish clarification. Or he can oso call me a liar and say article is got write by him, si erm si? either way oso can work for me, tio boh?
Dear danieljx
You got say “I agree with TKH_original. Pls dont post irrelevant post here. This topic is about the building.” This one is legalistic argument. We are men of Holy Spirit tio boh? Even if legally right but spiritually wrong, we cannot do tio boh? I oso got post at your Ps Kong daily devotion article on “Secure In Yourself”. Some more, I got wonder why give own title to article written by other people. I oso got post comments at “Thomas faith”. But I got no reply lehhh. I got wonder why.
I hope CHC devotees not fear to discern truth for themself. Is not difficult to check one if I got tell truth or not. Just see in Leadership Bible editor is Sid Buzzell, page 1258 and compare with devotion article “secure in Yourself’”. just go see page 1271 and see if first two paragraphs of Thomas Faith is same.
This one is promise of God to you “Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:32
Hi Pastor, just wanna say that I’m very satisfied with the new church place. And that you have NEVER disappointed me…or any of my friends that I know in church…you are a good pastor, Pastor! Thank you for always caring for us….only someone who cares will care to maximize our every dollar of donation to the fullest potential. We love you Pastor!
Suntec city =) this is a miracle from God.
@michaelow: What I mean is that if I am not mistaken it is not meant to be his own intellectual property – that’s why it’s different from his books, his personal blog, etc.
Daily devotions are usually adapted from a number of sources, this is a common practice as they are not books or intellectual property of the said source. If you look for Daily Devotions online such as devotion.net and bible.com/daily-devotional.com, they do not credit sources as well. This is due to the fact that many Christian material is made available for all and are non-copyrightable. It is meant for edification and to help you in your daily Christian walk. :)
I don’t think this reflects that Pastor Kong does not tell the truth.
God bless :)
I wish that CHC took the Jurong East property instead. It would have been a real rise and build project, developing something novel, and growing a new community. Yes, its gonna be far from the city, but what about reaching people from the east? And yes, its sort of like building all things from the scratch, but isn’t that the point? As for Suntec, it will remain known as Suntec. Its not exactly rise and build, as its already there. Its just like renting another place. Moreover, our brothers and sisters in Christ are already working for God there. Oh well…
I got say something can?
Dear nice jinglebelle
This one you say “@michaelow: What I mean is that if I am not mistaken it is not meant to be his own intellectual property – that’s why it’s different from his books, his personal blog, etc.”
Whether his or not his intellectual property, must always give credit to source. This is VERY IMPORTANT LESSON got learn in theological seminary. Your Ps Kong is got MDiv, Doctor of Theology from NCITS. They sure got teach him this simple rule one. Even preachers at pulpit are supposed to credit source of their ideas. So like that you mean, got other devotion articles in his website oso got copy from other sources ahhh!
Aiyahhh, he got Doctor of Theology, no ideas for daily devotion mehhh? Surely he got read Bible everyday and sure God got speak to him one, tio boh? Why cannot write what God speak to him daily ahhh? Some more in Thomas Faith devotion, he just got copy first two paragraphs and then add own writing? This one is act of integrity ahhhh?
Jinglebelle, you are a nice girl but you go read Leadership Bible page 1258 can? See your Ps Kong is got lift whole article then got print in his daily devotion. Then you go read page 1271. You got see first two paragraphs got say about Thomas. Is word for word same as your Ps Kong devotion on Thomas faith. But where is credit to original source ahh? Then you go read this Bible at beginning page. You got see the words “All righs reserved”. This means Zondervam got reserve all rights to reprint any part that is found in Leadership Bible. Whether your Ps Kong no make money or got write for edification, man of God must have principle. Must have got respect for others intellectual property tio boh? So this one why he never do ahhhh?
Hi erickp,
I would agree that based on past experience and knowledge, Arise & Build would mean literally to build from scratch. That was how the church’s Jurong West building came about. However, I believe God is a creative God, He is not limited to just one way of owning a place. Together with Pastor Kong’s sharing about how he really believe Suntec is a God-given place for the church & with Pastor Phil’s prophecy (not once, but thrice), shows that Suntec will be the right direction to work towards. I can see that this is something Pastor has faith for strongly. We may not be a 100% owner of the place right now, but I know that many are believing that one day, the prophecy will manifest itself fully and God’s will for CHC shall be completed.
I think it’s important to understand that the work of God takes time. IMHO, if we do not take the first step to become co-owners of Suntec City CC, we may never be able to dream bigger and don’t even mention one day owning the entire Suntec City CC (by the grace of God).
This is my personal perspective when I look at the decision of Suntec being made. =) God Bless.
Hi michaellowisback,
It’s great to know that you are well-read. To be honest, I have not read that version of the Bible you have mentioned nor am I totally aware of the laws concerning copyright in this context. But I believe that there is a ministry watch that ensures all churches are within the legal restrictions. Should any church turn rogue, the ministry watch would step in to implement measures to mitigate and rectify the problem.
Most importantly I really like what you said “Proverbs 20:2 “A king’s wrath is like the roar of a lion; he who angers him forfeits his life.” Is no matter, God is my vindicator tio boh?”
God is not just your and my vindicator, the Bible says He is a vindicator of Himself. Bible says that He would avenge Himself for His name sake. When it comes to doubts concerning the Man of God, I believe we should allow the sovereignty of God to judge Pastor Kong and not ourselves lest we blaspheme against God’s anointed and the Holy Spirit that is working in him.
Mark 3:29
but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”
Some additional verses for you regarding this; Romans 14:10, James 4:11.
1 Cor 3:11-13
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.
The day will come when all that we do will be judged by God so what is the rush? I pray that while you are questioning Pastor Kong, your own foundation could restand the test of fire.
From your previous dialogues, I believe you have been around for quite a while. That should make you a more mature believer over the newer believers as well as being a contributor to the House of God be it in speech, finances or action, etc. However, that is clearly not seen in your dialogues with the other christians. That prompts one question in my mind, are you here to edify, or to disrupt this assembly(over on this blogsite) where everyone is rejoicing but you’re here for yet another motive?
With that said, it’s great to see that you are knowledgeable.
1 Corinthians 8:1b
We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.
That ability could be better used to encourage rather than to bring down the senior pastor. Haha. Because the Bible says
1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
When you mentioned that you even sometimes call your pastor by his name only, I thought that you are just making it worse by showing to the world how arrogant you are, by not even respecting the man of God that is responsible for you. While the Bible says that we should not pay significant attention to status and all, the Bible did say to honor the men and women of God. Why? Simple, because they are the chosen and ordained people sent by God. And that can clearly be seen as negative in your life.
So, even if you are not part of this congregation, I believe it isn’t too hard to ask of you to celebrate this triumphant moment with us rather than ‘attacking’ our senior pastor with all your Bible knowledge. I thought the Bible said if any of the brethren have disagreements, to resolve it in secret and not in the open? Instead of posting your views and what not over here, where thousands if not millions can see, why don’t you send a email to the Church directly where you can get a more accurate reply from the Church? Or are you attempting to shame the Man of God publicly or attempting to gain recognition?
I still can’t come to terms with you using the ‘hokkienpeng’ to communicate your ideas here. I feel that it is unnecessary to communicate like this and I believe that you can easily speak normal English but choose otherwise, perhaps to bring about another cause?
If you are really ‘men of Holy Spirit’ that you claim to be, then consider what would the Holy Spirit do in your shoes. I seriously doubt the HS that I know would come to one of His people’s blog here and criticise and question and criticise. Please don’t stain the image of HS.
Thank you.
Dear Reuel
If I got speak the truth, how can this got be I got blaspheme the Holy Spirit? This one I just say his “secure in yourself” is word for word copy of article in page 1258 of leadership Bible is true. Is not difficult to prove me a liar tio boh? On other hand, if man of God give devotional word that he got copy from another person, that is robbing God tio boh? God give another man his devotion word but then another man of God take that devotion word and make like his own word from God and never credit source one. That one is no more man of God but false prophet because is not God’s Word to him.
This one we very clear OK? Is copyright matter, tio boh? If your ps kong got forget to credit source is OK, he can still clarify tio boh? Like that so difficult meh? I oso hope he just got forget to do that, not that he got plagiarise other people’s work. I got respect for him but I not idolize him until can overlook this got so glaring ‘mistake’ one.
You throw so many Bible verses to me is no use one ok? What is matter is what is righteous conduct above all! Obedience is better than sacrifice. Funny hor, you say I am mature Christian, your buddy paulzhang got say I oni fruitless baby Christian… What names you call me is no big deal. God is still be my Vindicator, my Rock, my Horn and my Shield
And If I am a real man of the Spirit I will not use another man’s article and post it among my own devotion article. A Man of the Spirit will sure got take time to hear what word God got give for the day one and write that for his devotion
Thank you
Achieving Dreams. Celebrating Success!
Let’s be focused here. Suntec City Convention Centre! =)
(Col: 3:23)
“And whatever you do, do it heartily as to the Lord and not to men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance for you serve the Lord Christ”
Dear Z
You are right. Let us be focused here.. on Word of God and righteousness
“Does the LORD delight in sleek buildings and loud worship as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD ? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the tithes of thousands. For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.” I Sam 15:22,23
Dear Pastor
I was at Services 2 and 3 to catch the news of our new building. It is a miacle that only GOD can perform for us to delight in. For $310 million to gain a majority stake at Suntec City, it is just beyond human thinking. When I wife met a youth member of our church after Service 2, and asked for her opinion, she could not give her a positive answer. I believe it is too macro-economics to explain. But in simpe terms, what is $310 for a stake of 1 million sq. ft.? It means $310.00 per sq. ft. For this sum, we cannot even buy a HDB. But ours is for a private property for 78 years! Yes, God has done it again
Andrew Wong Cien Theng
Hi michaelow :)
Thanks for the gracious reply too. But I really think you should email the church or Pastor Kong for a proper reply, cos I can only give my personal opinion here. I really think there was no ill intent on the part of the Daily Devotion, there are many out there who do not credit any source. :)
I think it’s good you are being proactive in asking and finding out, but there is no way you would get an proper answer from the online forums :)
God Bless :)
HI Jinglebelle
If got no ill-intent, is not very difficult to publish clarification, :) Man of God can be humble to admit to wrongs tio boh. Even if 99 people not give credit to original source, Man of God must give credit to original source. Is righteous act in God’s eyes most important to any Man of God. Even if got other Christians cheat on parking time, still I not want to cheat. Is always better to have clean hands and clean heart before God.
Is funny you say cannot get a proper answer here? is it because people here donch wanna hear got anytjing negative abt their pastor?
Anyway, I thank u for being so gracious. You are the oni one who know what it got mean to return good for evil :) Not that I got mean I want do evil OK? :))
Blessings
Praise God for Suntec, truly this is the work of God
I thank God for city harvest church who is being greatly used by God to impact so many lives
Hi Michaellowisback,
everyone is entitled to voice their views on this blog. Of course, when members read negative comments, it doesn’t feel good to us. But this does not mean we are deliberately shutting ourselves off something that’s negatively said about our Pastor. This is our effort of respecting all opinions, and also attempt to address them the best we can objectively. And for your case, be rest assured: we have heard your voice and your opinion.
Achieving Dreams. Celebrating Success!
Praise God for Suntec City Convention Centre =)
We will Arise and Build!
Jiayou everyone.
Yes, we are going to have the dream come true. And the best has yet to come.
The dream is like a mustard seed which, when it is sown on the ground, is smaller than all the seeds on the earth; but when it is sown, it grows up and becomes greater than all herbs, and shoots out large branches, so that the birds of the air may nest under its shade. (Mark 4:31-32)
It is not the size of the seed that determines the growth but the growth potential in the seed and the condition of the soil. A mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds, yet it produces formidable results. In the same way, a single word from God can produce mighty results.
When the Holy Spirit gives revelation concerning a Word we have received, our spiritual eyes catch a glimpse of things we have never seen before. We begin to visualise the goal of the iconic building in our mind in fourth dimension and we confess it with faith a thousand times.
Consider the word “faith.” It is a small word that we easily hurry past. It can arouse feelings of condemnation, and some would prefer not to consider it at all. There are so many other words we would rather ponder. But on this occasion as you verify the amount pledged for A&B at the portal, be sure to pray and strengthen your faith to do God’s will. Nothing is impossible with God.
Jesus said in Luke 17:6, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.” So little faith and such enormous results!
Throughout the ages the Holy Spirit has put His word in the hearts of believers. Circumstances might have loomed like enormous mountains and caused the Word to seem as little and insignificant as a mustard seed.
But those who refused to focus on the dark circumstances, defeats and opposition and instead allowed the Holy Spirit to reveal what the mustard seed contained saw wonderful things take place.
A mighty tree grew up to the sky, and birds nested in its shade. In other words, the Word revealed to us, received in faith, can result in restoration and blessing for thousands if not millions of people.
The Word is not meant only for us. It begins like a small stream and gradually grows into a mighty, unstoppable river. As in Revelation 22:1-4, then the angel showed me a river with the water of life, clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb. It flowed down the center of the main street. On each side of the river grew a tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, with a fresh crop each month. The leaves were used for medicine to heal the nations. No longer will there be a curse upon anything. For the throne of God and of the Lamb will be there, and his servants will worship Him. And they will see His face…רַבִּי rabbī EU
Dear Lord, help me to hold fast to Your word even when circumstances work against me. When the oceans rise and thunders roar I will soar with You above the storm
Abba Father, You are King over the flood. I will be still and know You are God. Let something mighty grow forth from what You have planted in my life so that many will be blessed. I will rise up to be Your mighty man of valor and advance the Kingdom of God in the marketplace. In Jesus’ name. Amen.